Hey y'all, I am starting to swap an A20A3 from an 88 LXI into my 88DX Sedan. I am currently trying to make sure that my wiring diagram looks feasible, especially the way I want to wire the injector resistor pack into the injectors. Can you guys take a look at it, and tell me if you think it should work? Darn, I can't post images yet... here I am going to post two bunk posts here... sorry about this in advance...
Here is the first blank one...
and this should be the last one... so I can post a picture of my diagram... and some of the car too...
Here is what I think my wiring should look like... what do y'all think? I have ommited the factory wiring for the stuff I am not changing... IE starter, and alternator... I plan to leave the bottom half of my engine harrness alone, only add what I need to in a separate harness about the existing one.
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The Lucky Car that is getting all this attention:
BTW thats my house in the background... don't you love how they still havent finished painting it after a year?
Here is the Engine Just the way I got it from the wrecking yard I just LOVED the blue loom on there(Pulled the whole harness off later that night, and did the water pump, oil pan seal, and timing belt, plus adjusting the valves):
Last edited by cougar97536; 03-15-2010 at 09:29 AM.
Originally Posted by cougar97536
Here is what I think my wiring should look like... what do y'all think? I have ommited the factory wiring for the stuff I am not changing... IE starter, and alternator... I plan to leave the bottom half of my engine harrness alone, only add what I need to in a separate harness about the existing one.
Yeah, that looks right. Except I would put injectors 1/4 on one bank and 2/3 on the other. It might not make a big difference but it should run a little smoother this way, because of how the injections are timed and the firing order. Also, when you configure the MS in Megatune/TunerStudio, set the number of injections per cycle to "4" and the injector staging to "alternating". The default is 2-alt which is fine, but 4-alt will run a little smoother and make tuning the acceleration enrichment easier.
Here is the Engine Just the way I got it from the wrecking yard I just LOVED the blue loom on there
Don't you know? The "performance" vacuum hoses get you like an extra 5HP.
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Bump, and a pic of what is being replaced...
This thing uses oil like it is going out of style... I have no Idea what the previous owner did to her to make here this way... she only has 256,000 miles on the clock. The car uses like 3 quarts a week, and since it doesn't leave any serious drips, I conclude that it must be burning it all. The blow by is so bad, that she needs an air filter every week and a half too... So I thought it was time for an upgrade.
Have a good one, and if you can't do that, have a great one...
Sweet! This looks like a fun project. Keep us updated! I also love the 2g hubcaps on the 3g!
Cool project but I would stick with the OEM EFI setup
http://pages.videotron.com/omus
3geez member since July 12 2000
I need these parts!
https://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67742
That new motor looks clean.
These cars have been 'squirted before. Contact cygnus and see how he can help out. He's done it and can help out a lot.
Thanks y'all... I am not going with the factory EFI because 1, I really hate all the vacum lines, and two my car didn't come with EFI, and to make it work with the factory computer I would have to swap almost every wire in the car. I also don't have a complete factory harness to use.
Thanks cygnus I will be sure to set-up my squirt the way you suggested. Thanks for your time. Here is the fixed diagram... this looks right now correct?
I actually thought that those covered lines where worth 10 ponies... guess I was a little off
Does anyone know if the vacuum control box, either under the seat or the black box in the bay controls the fuel pump, or coil power? Thanks for all the help-encouragement so far.
Have a good one...
Last edited by cougar97536; 03-15-2010 at 07:47 PM.
So, am I correct in reading that two injectors are fired simultaneously... sort of like a... um... "wasted fuel" setup? lol That would be batch firing I take it?
That is correct, It is a batch fire system, meaning that two injectors are fired at the same time. This isn't really too much of an issue much above idle, and there is now support from mega squirt to run full sequential fuel injection, it just requires a lot of extra work at this point. I plan to eventually move to a MS3 and that should have support for it right out of the box, along with full coil on plug support in the stock configuration.
Thanks for the interest everyone... Don't have too much fun...
I am off to take a final...I hate finals...
Ok... just finished that final... I think it went pretty well, now back to the project
Does the stock ECU run a batch fire setup as well? I've been trying to figure this out for a while. I've never could figure out how people ran a Multiport injection system on the older Civics off of a dual-port ECU by adding a couple wires. I guess if it was batch-fire, then that would make plenty of sense.
To the best of my knowledge, which I have just acquired over the last few days,the stock ECU runs a sequential set-up. This is the reason there are three sensors in the distributor, even though the stock ECU doesn't control timing at all. It lets the computer figure out when to inject fuel for each cylinder. Did that help clear it up? I just like everyone being on the same sheet of music... otherwise you get some NASTY stuff...
Makes total sense! Thx!
That was why I did it too. I started with carbs, which were ok, but I really wanted some sort of fuel injection system that could also control timing as well. The factory ECU doesn't control timing, so why bother? That's where all the real power gains are.
Thanks cygnus I will be sure to set-up my squirt the way you suggested. Thanks for your time. Here is the fixed diagram... this looks right now correct?
Not quite. Swap #3 and #4 and you have it. If you have any other questions/problems/etc. feel free to ask away. I'm not sure I want to admit how many hours and gallons of fuel I've burned up messing with this stuff. It's just so addicting!
I actually thought that those covered lines where worth 10 ponies... guess I was a little off
Only if it's on a Civic. Or a Shitsubishi.
I'm not totally sure about the Accords but I'm pretty sure they don't. The ignition should be powered on it's own whenever the ignition switch is in "on" or "start". The fuel pump should have a relay (of sorts) that monitors the "-" side of the coil and powers the fuel pump when it sees pulses from the ignition. That's how the carbed Preludes work and I bet the Accords are the same. If you haven't seen it yet, there are some links somewhere to the factory service manuals that you can download. Those will help a lot.
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The MS3 will be seriously cool. Full sequential/COP support for up to 8 cylinders, individual cylinder fuel/spark trim, way more inputs/outputs for other functions, awesome stuff. Incidentally I'm just about finished with the sequential/COP upgrade to my MS2, so I don't think I'll be going to MS3 for a good while. It would be neat to play with the model based fueling (instead of table based) whenever they get to that point. But that's still way experimental stuff, even for the big OEMs.
Ok... just finished that final... I think it went pretty well, now back to the project
22lb/hr. I'm going to guess that you're calculating Req_fuel? The req_fuel calculator and auto VE table generator should at least get it running and idling. Then you can tweak from there.
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Thank you sir... that is exactly what I was doing, and that is what I thought I remembered from way back... just couldn't find it again when I needed it. (don't you just hate that?)
and I looked at the firing order about 3 minutes ago, and smacked my head... I saw where you where going with switching 'em, and then thought you must have wanted it the way I drew it... but no the firing order isn't 1,2,3,4 , its 1,3,4,2 ... go figure...
thanks for the heads up on the manuals, I already had em though
the wiring diagrams in there are the biggest let down I have had in a while though. They seem to have prided themselves on making stuff confusing-leaving useful stuff out. I have been spoiled in the recent past by the Fiero manuals, they have pin out for all major connectors, and complete wiring diagrams I can follow... oh well, thanks for the assist there. I have now confirmed that I have spark with all the stupid vacuum stuff removed. I unplugged all the electrical connectors from both the "computer" and the "black box of death" and then hit the key... It started right up, also fuel pump has power still so, WE ARE IN BUSINESS!!! Sad story, It idled better without all the control stuff plugged in...
Thanks much and have a good one!
PS what are you running for tuning software? TunerStudio or Megatune?
You got it then. It wouldn't have been a disaster either way. Just maybe not quote a smooth. That's the kind of stuff you only really figure out when you start messing around with things.
thanks for the heads up on the manuals, I already had em though
the wiring diagrams in there are the biggest let down I have had in a while though. They seem to have prided themselves on making stuff confusing-leaving useful stuff out. I have been spoiled in the recent past by the Fiero manuals, they have pin out for all major connectors, and complete wiring diagrams I can follow... oh well, thanks for the assist there.
I have to agree, those manuals aren't the best for schematics. I do have a really good schematic diagram for the Prelude but I can't remember where it came from. I know it was done by a 3rd party though. I'll see if I can figure out where it came from.
Not surprising about idling better with the control stuff. The stock carb was designed to work with all that stuff, so without it would need a retune probably. Don't worry about it. The MS will run better than the carb anyway.I have now confirmed that I have spark with all the stupid vacuum stuff removed. I unplugged all the electrical connectors from both the "computer" and the "black box of death" and then hit the key... It started right up, also fuel pump has power still so, WE ARE IN BUSINESS!!! Sad story, It idled better without all the control stuff plugged in...
I use TunerStudio. It's really the way to go now that it's been pretty well beta tested. I think Phil was planning the first "official" stable release real soon now. It's also the only SW that works with MS3. Megatune is just too outdated at this point.
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Thanks for the info... and yeah I just thought that it was sad that it seemed happier WITHOUT any of that crap plugged in...
you wouldn't happen to be running a stock IAT and a stock Coolant temp sensors would you? if so would you mind sharing the resistor-temp pairs with me? Also do you know what the Bias Resistor Value should be? I am thinking that it should be 2.49k for a stock megasquirt right?
Lastly the auto VE table generation wizard, I must be blind, but where is it in TunerStudio?
Thanks for all the help, sorry I have so many questions...
BTW, thanks again for making my figure out that firing order, I adjusted the valves based on the wrong order, I am now headed out to the shop to re-adjust my valves the correct way...
Last edited by cougar97536; 03-17-2010 at 11:57 AM.
Oh, I misread what you said. It's happy to have been liberated and not held down by the (emissions) man!
Umm, I have a GM coolant sensor and an Integra IAT that should be identical to the Accord IAT. The temp points for the IAT are:
Temp deg.C/ohms
0 / 4820
25.5 / 2083
100 / 275
There should be a graph in the service manual for the coolant sensor but you have to dig to find it. I know I've seen it though. I'll see if I can find it. You have the right value for the bias resistor.
Oh, you know what? It might not be in there yet. I remember someone mentioning this on the MS forum but I forget the details.
Hmm, yeah I don't see it either. You might have to use Megatune to generate the table then. Or if you want I could send you my maps and you could try those. You would probably have to fiddle with the Req_fuel to get it to run but it might be closer than the auto generated map.
Not a problem at all. That's the whole point of this forum.
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Thank you again for all that info... I will be able to calc at least one of my sensors now... Just wondering why are you not running the Honda coolant sensor? Also, if you don't mind, how hard was it to get the gm sensor threaded into the engine?
I would love to start w/ your maps of that is cool with you. By the by, have you changed something big on your motor that will effect my req_fuel?
again, thanks so much for the info!
Last edited by cougar97536; 03-21-2010 at 02:09 PM.
To tell you the truth I don't even remember why I used the GM sensor. It's been nearly 3 years now. I think it might have been out of convenience. Before I did the MS conversion I had an aftermarket temp gauge with the sensor plugged into the thermostat housing, so I already wasn't using the stock sensor. Then when I did the MS conversion I probably couldn't find the original sensor so I just bought a new GM one. The GM sensor curves are also programmed into Megatune by default so I wouldn't have had to go looking for the numbers.
If you look in the emission controls section of the manual there should be a graph for the Thermosensor. This is what the stock ECU uses to measure temperature so that should work for you. I can't say for certain that your Accord sensor will be the same as what's in my Prelude manual but here are the points from my manual:
Temp deg.C / Ohms
0 / 6000
20 / 2400
90 / 200
I would bet these will work for your sensor.
I do have larger than stock injectors and an upgraded cam, but that shouldn't make much difference. The req_fuel is really just a scaling value for the VE table. You could for example double the req_fuel number and divide the entries in your VE table by 2 and the engine would run exactly the same. Conversely you could divide req_fuel by 2 and double the VE table and get the same thing again. The shape of the VE table is determined largely by the torque profile of the engine, which won't change much until you start doing some pretty serious mods. So since I have larger injectors you might need a higher req_fuel to compensate, but then I also have a longer duration cam so it may need to be smaller.
Except, I just thought of something else. You're going to be using the stock O2 sensor correct? If that's the case you might not be able to use my fuel map at all. I have a wideband O2 sensor that reads true AFR over a wide range, where the stock sensor is only good at around the stoichiometric point. With a wideband sensor you would usually have separate VE and AFR tables, which I'm not sure you can do with a regular narrow band sensor. I would have to do some investigating. You might get to it before I do, so let me know what you find if I haven't posted anything yet. I'm kind of curious myself, having never used a narrow band sensor with the MS.
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Thanks for looking up those values for me...
Yeah it looks like I can't have a AFR Table until I go wideband... TunerStudio locks me out of AFR until I say I am using a wideband... I plan to, just too broke right now to do it...
So I guess it looks like I am going to have to start from scratch... oh well... I guess that is part of the experience...
Thanks again... I owe you at least a few beers if you are ever over this way...
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