Importordomestic: Brake project!

[Importordomestic]

Hey everyone!

I have a project that is ongoing that I want to share. As some of you know I run my car on the circuit track. It has been a long process to get her ready and everytime I run with the big dogs I Find something small and big to improve on. this project in particular is ongoing and will be updated through the build process.

As I do HPDE events and general track days I have found out that the accord has a HUGE brake problem. There is a track local to me called TGPR. this track was designed with dominent left handers and no elevation change. the catch is that it was designed for motor bikes. This track being small has some really nasty corners, that demand quick 90 - 50mph hard braking.

I found myself bleeding the brakes every 30 minutes due to brake fade, and flat out killing front rotors. This of course is un-acceptable for true competition use.

So I jumped on 3geez and read through all the old archives / big brake threads, everything LX-incredible ever wrote...LOL. In the end I felt that I needed something more.

My plan is to run the biggest front rotors possible that will fit under 15x8 rims
rotors around 11-11.75'' in diameter. Rear discs conversion that LX-incredible did or possibly a spin off or variant of that. (More on that later.) run dual master cylinders with on the fly adjustable balance bar. (yes that means no more brake booster, and nor more 40/40 prop valve.)

Before I go any further I have to extend my Thanks to the 3geez community. You have helped me more than you can imagine in my early years with this car, And you continue to give me inspiration for my project as a whole.

More importantly for this project I have to give BIG PROPS to Brian at www.fastbrakes.com. This poor guy worked with me for 4 months to put this plan into action. The level of customer staisfaction is well beyond words. If my lawn mower needs brake pads, I will buy them from him.

Here it is, complete Wilwod components for the entire build..

Front brakes are:
2 piece front rotors 11.75'' diameter
4 pot aluminum NDL caliper
Wilwood DT30 front pads.
All stainless hardware teflon coated.



Comparison of stock 88-89 front rotor to the Wilwood 11.75''





Here are progressive pics of the moch install for test fitting.

[Importordomestic]

For now this is all I have. I know that there will be lots of questions / comments suggestions, I will try to reply as soon as I can.

I have picked out my dual master cylinder brake pedal assembly and front size master cylinder. Again using all Wilwood parts.
However at this moment I am at a cross roads with my design. I cant determine how I want to do the rear disc's. For the most part everything tells me to go with Wilwood 2 piece rotors again with 11'' vented rotors and a 2 pot caliper, This however effectively eliminates the manual parking brake. There are solutions to a parking brake, but race cars dont need parking brakes only show cars need a parking brake right?

option 2
Doo the LX-incredible 11'' rear non vented rotor and legend calipers. It would be easy As I already have the calipers. I retain the parking brake and a cheaper price slightly.

option 3
Move the old front rotors to the rear and find a 2 pot Wilwood caliper that will work with the rotor.

Once the rear upgrade is set in stone I can move forward with rear master cylinder size selection and finish the brake system.

OH and the big question everyone will have is HOW MUCH $$$$
$1,200 for what you see in the first picture alone. My race car has no budget. It will get whatever money it needs to build the car to my shops standards.

ASFmotors - building your grocery geter.

[2drSE-i]

Lets hear it, $$??

Looks awesome! Lets hear some results! Oh and what is a balance bar? Forgive my ignorance.

[2drSE-i]

Oh and details on the caliper bracket.

[Importordomestic]

Lets hear it, $$??

Looks awesome! Lets hear some results! Oh and what is a balance bar? Forgive my ignorance.

$1,200 so far.

Here is ver batem out of Wilwod Faq
- The balance bar is an adjustable lever (usually a threaded rod), that pivots on a spherical bearing and uses two separate
master cylinders for the front and rear brakes. Most balance bars are part of a pedal assembly that also provides a mounting
for the master cylinders. When the balance bar is centered, it pushes equally on both master cylinders creating equal pressure,
given that the master cylinders are the same size bore. When adjusted as far as possible toward one master cylinder it
will push approximately twice as hard on that cylinder as the other

There is a diagram located here on page 3
http://www.wilwood.com/PDF/DataSheets/ds252.pdf

[Importordomestic]

Oh and details on the caliper bracket.

Well.... Um I cant in good conciense give those out at this time as Brian at fastbrakes worked really hard to make this work. Sorry - Iwill call him tomorrow and if he says ok I will take measurements and relay them to you. As of right now I dont really know.

[2drSE-i]

Well.... Um I cant in good conciense give those out at this time as Brian at fastbrakes worked really hard to make this work. Sorry - Iwill call him tomorrow and if he says ok I will take measurements and relay them to you. As of right now I dont really know.

Oh no sweat, dont go out of your way. It looks to be a fairly simple design, i was just curious if it was a one off, which it seems to be.


As for the balance bar, from what the FAQ says is basically an easily adjustable proportioning valve for multi-cylinder use? Sounds interesting!

[Importordomestic]

Thats it. you got it. it is for fineite adjustment of brake bias. replace the threaded rod wit hthe Wilwood remote mount adjuster and you can adjust brake bias on the fly. now this can eliminate the use of a proportioning valve. In my case I have opted to do so. for the on the fly bias adjustment.

Another way to use dual master cylinders is for redundancy, Ie if you run rally or endurance races. you would use 2 equal master cylinders run both of them into the proportioning valve in tandem or run a secondary set of lines to your calipers and have 100% redundant systems. if you loose one master cylinder or 1 of the 8 lines gets torn you still have all the brakes.

in my case I will have 50% redundat brake system. if the front master cylinder fails or tear a front brake line i still have the rear brake system to bleed speed before i tag the wall............

[turabaka]

Man, I love your hatch. Totally badass car. I have to say thanks for the thread you started on wheel fitments. Thanks to you I'll be running 15x8 rota rb's with 225/45 kumho v700's as my autocross setup.

[Civic Accord Honda]

hell yeah thats awesome!
as for rear brakes id go with the legend setup so u can use the ebrake for drifto!!!

[Importordomestic]

Man, I love your hatch. Totally badass car. I have to say thanks for the thread you started on wheel fitments. Thanks to you I'll be running 15x8 rota rb's with 225/45 kumho v700's as my autocross setup.

Thanks man for the compliment. Rota rims are awesome. Honestly I want to go WIDER!!!. I also want you to look at the Hancookc Ventus Rs3's thay are a proven autocross tire, and they grip for days on my car. I actually try to get the car to understeer. For now I dont have enough power to negate a wider tire.

Also I want you to understand that if you are going to drop the car agressively you WIll have to roll the fenders. My coilovers are all the way down but my springs are aftermarket for a 97 crv. so the car still sits pretty high. BUt still 1.5'' lower than the stock accord. another reason i dont lower my car anymore than it is, is that I dont have enough camber adjustment in the front yet to compensate. At this time i am running -3 on the front and i cant pull any more out. So this is low as i go until i switch setups.

[Importordomestic]

hell yeah thats awesome!
as for rear brakes id go with the legend setup so u can use the ebrake for drifto!!!

Got any lunch trays laying around? LOL

Thanks CAH your awesome!!

[2drSE-i]

Got any lunch trays laying around? LOL

Thanks CAH your awesome!!

You laugh but in highschool this was ALL the rage!

[Importordomestic]

You laugh but in highschool this was ALL the rage!

I know, I've done it with this 3g.......

[markmdz89hatch]

damn, you really did it. After the initial timeline was extended, I was concerned for you. ...but Brian pulled through. They look insane.

[stat1K]

i peed.

[Importordomestic]

damn, you really did it. After the initial timeline was extended, I was concerned for you. ...but Brian pulled through. They look insane.

Yeah it sure did take a long time, But is was worth it. Yeah we overshot my initial timeline by 2 months but oh well. There is still work to be done before i can use them at the track. But I am excited.

[turabaka]

Thanks man for the compliment. Rota rims are awesome. Honestly I want to go WIDER!!!. I also want you to look at the Hancookc Ventus Rs3's thay are a proven autocross tire, and they grip for days on my car. I actually try to get the car to understeer. For now I dont have enough power to negate a wider tire.

Also I want you to understand that if you are going to drop the car agressively you WIll have to roll the fenders. My coilovers are all the way down but my springs are aftermarket for a 97 crv. so the car still sits pretty high. BUt still 1.5'' lower than the stock accord. another reason i dont lower my car anymore than it is, is that I dont have enough camber adjustment in the front yet to compensate. At this time i am running -3 on the front and i cant pull any more out. So this is low as i go until i switch setups.

Yeah. I already had to roll them to accomdate the 215/45-r16 falken azenis I ran last year. As for my tire choice, I considered the Ventus, but I couldn't pass up the v700's that I got for $70 a tire. next year I'll probably be running hoosier A6's or Kumho v710's

[Oldblueaccord]

11.75" under a 15" inch rim is impressive in a Honda setup. I never could find anything with a stock parts that I though could work.

Great write up too!



wp

[Importordomestic]

hoosier A6 is a bad ass tire. but at $217 a pop your getting hard core.

i likes.

[Importordomestic]

11.75" under a 15" inch rim is impressive in a Honda setup. I never could find anything with a stock parts that I though could work.

Great write up too!



wp

Thank's

I needed something more than stock honda parts. The wilwood pieces are lighter than the stock 88 brakes. I am not sure how much lighter at this piint as i havent removed the old brakes compeltely to weigh them. I estimate i decreased the un sprung weight in the front from 2 - 5 lbs.

The other thing is that new rotor surafaces are 30$ a pop. so its in-expensive to replace. The re drilled legend rotors can cost slightly more pending who is doing the re-drilling. and you have lead time on ordering those types of parts. not only that those big hunks of metal combined with an even bigger acura caliper will add a substancial amount of weight to the front. However the benefits of a bigger rotor will outweigh the costs of more weight.

In the end I wanted my cake and eat it to.... lol

[Tdurr]

i love this! if i get 1200 to blow(after i get my rx7 running and the accord right) ill be gettin these ahahahaha

[Importordomestic]

i love this! if i get 1200 to blow(after i get my rx7 running and the accord right) ill be gettin these ahahahaha

Tdurr how you been man? I like your new sig pic with the winky eye. How are your projects coming along? The 86 RX7 restoration is coming along nicely. I still need to pick up a few parts for the engine to be complete, But money is tight this past month so it will have to wait a little while. Fortunately when you have a shop and accumulate supplies, elbow grease is all that is needed to do good portions of work.

Did this this past weekend. I should probably thorw up a thread in the general section to show its build progress...idk

[cygnus x-1]

Wow, this is really cool! This gives me some motivation to upgrade the brakes on my 2g Prelude. Have a couple questions though...

run dual master cylinders with on the fly adjustable balance bar. (yes that means no more brake booster, and nor more 40/40 prop valve.)

By not using a brake booster, won't the required pedal effort go up significantly? It would be really nice to not have to use a brake booster.

Is that bracket steel or aluminum? I would assume steel but it looks like it's anodized.

Also it looks like your safety wire is kinda backwards. It's supposed to be run so that it works against the bolts loosening up. I guess they still couldn't loosen very far the way it is.



C|

[Importordomestic]

Wow, this is really cool! This gives me some motivation to upgrade the brakes on my 2g Prelude. Have a couple questions though...





By not using a brake booster, won't the required pedal effort go up significantly? It would be really nice to not have to use a brake booster.







Is that bracket steel or aluminum? I would assume steel but it looks like it's anodized.

Also it looks like your safety wire is kinda backwards. It's supposed to be run so that it works against the bolts loosening up. I guess they still couldn't loosen very far the way it is.



C|

The stock brake pedal will be removed and a Wilwood pedal installed. the Wilwood pedal gives a leverage action of 7-1. This is how the mechanical force is overcome and brake booster not needed.

Here is a link to the pedal I picked out for this build: 2nd one from the top of the page. http://www.wilwood.com/Pedals/PedalList.aspx If you read the PDF document attached It explains in great detail all about the pedal/dual master cylinder setup.

The bracket is made out of aluminum same as the caliper. I believe it to be 4340. I would have to ask Brian at fastbrakes to confirm this tho.

oh and the lace is competely wrong. I thought i knew what I was doing the first time ariound and after some research:

A your not suposed to use a single wire to lace them together.
B always lace from the outer most part of the rotor to the inner most part.
C you are supposed to wire the bolts in pairs and in a figure 8. the figure 8 makes 100% sure the bolts work against each other from loosening. and they are in pairs because if you break on wire you potentially will only have 2 bolts back out.

Un fortunately locktite will not work as the rotors see enough heat to brak the locktite down. Also if the bolts do loosen and start to back out this will mean catastrophic failure as the bolt will jam against my knuckle and instantly cause a wreck, which could lead into other things.

Are you on Rx7 club by any chance? I see a guy on the megasquirt forums named Sir Cygnus.