Pj5 pgm-ig wtf

[Ichiban]

Okay, so I de-loomed ALL the wiring that I have, removed the 82's stock external voltage regulator, wired in the 4 pin EFI alternator plug, with the wire for the ECU, taped everything up, and plugged everything in, after removing approximately 892480298349028347 unused wires from the cabin harness.

Well....


....except for the coil, that is. There aren't any wires ANYWHERE for triggering the coil. I didn't cut any wires out of the engine harness at all, and the ones that I took out of the cabin harness were either already cut at both ends by Aaron, or were Y-connected to other systems and went nowhere (only 1 wire did this) Any wires off the ECU that were cut, go to other systems like the warning light, power feeds etc.

So, does anyone have a diagram for the B20A ignition? I'm seriously confused by having all the wires from the sensors, but none to the coil. Without a diagram, I don't even have a clue where to start. If I can, I'd like to reuse the stock 82's igniter and wiring, or at the very least the coil, which is pretty much new.

I found and printed off Aaron's B20 pinout, which is probably going to be helpful, and I also found a drawing by thegreatdane, but can't load it due to stupid 28.8K dial up timing out.

[LX-incredible]

Is the timing electronically controlled on those?

A8 (white wire) goes straight from the ecu to the ignitor input. Just need to connect the other ignitor wires to ignition switched +12V (yellow/black), ground, and output to coil negative. The other side of the coil needs switched +12v as well.

[carotman]

The B20a has an external igniter on the strut tower that triggs the coil from the ECU. That's why you won't have a wire for it in the engine harness.

[Ichiban]

Is the timing electronically controlled on those?

A8 (white wire) goes straight from the ecu to the ignitor input. Just need to connect the other ignitor wires to ignition switched +12V (yellow/black), ground, and output to coil negative. The other side of the coil needs switched +12v as well.

Yeah, the timing is determined by the ECU, then presumably a signal somehow gets to the igniter, then the coil. The "white wire" is a shielded wire? I'm starting to think that what I'd thought went to the fuel pump is actually intended for the igniter. There is a green multi-pin connecter with only 3 wires in it.

Edit: The Green connecter has: White, Yellow/blue, and Black/yellow wires. Does this sound right for the igniter?
Edit again: Yeah, it's the A8 igniter wire as compared to Aarons Pinout. Yellow/blue is probably B12 Dist Crank Sensor? Aarons pinout says blue/yellow instead. Black/yellow is power supply or infeed?

The B20a has an external igniter on the strut tower that triggs the coil from the ECU. That's why you won't have a wire for it in the engine harness.

There has to be a wire somewhere, at least between the igniter and the ECU. This I'm having trouble finding.

[carotman]

I just noticed you're using a PJ5 ECU. Is it the Euro version? All Euro B20As do not have Ignition control in the ECU

[bullard123]

Dang man you still on dial up?

[Ichiban]

I just noticed you're using a PJ5 ECU. Is it the Euro version? All Euro B20As do not have Ignition control in the ECU

It's the one Aaron sent up from New Zealand. It does for sure have ignition control in the ECU, I'm pretty sure I found the wires for it, and it has the PGM-IG blinky light in the box.

Dang man you still on dial up?

I came back to stay at my parents place while undergoing cancer treatment. They live on a 45 acre ranch in the boonies about 4 Km north of the BC/Washington border. Nice place, no high speed.

[AccordB20A]

its a JDm prelude ecu, for a gold top b20a it has ignition timing and fuel on it. but yeah you need to make sure the crank sensor wires from the dizy go to the corect places on the ecu and the shielded ignitor output wire from pin A8 goes to the ignitor and then to the coil

[Ichiban]

its a JDm prelude ecu, for a gold top b20a it has ignition timing and fuel on it. but yeah you need to make sure the crank sensor wires from the dizy go to the corect places on the ecu and the shielded ignitor output wire from pin A8 goes to the ignitor and then to the coil

Finally. There you are, was wondering when you'd show up ;)

All the wires from the crank sensor/distributer all go where the harness makes them go. I didn't change any of that, sure hope it's right. A8 is going to the igniter, and the rest of the wiring is staying the same.

Oh, and Dood, yer thermostat housing leaks. Like everywhere. You guys use battery acid for coolant down there? She's rusty inside. Gonna see tomorrow if a new thermostat fixes it, 3g poolude should fit, eh? Then it's getting flushed.

I've still got a couple wires I can't fully explain. I'll probably post on that tomorrow though.

[Ichiban]

Question time:

What does 4 flashes on IG LED mean? It flashes 4 times, pauses and repeats...

[Ichiban]

Code four on the IG LED. No spark. Changed both distributer and crank angle sensor and still get code four. WTF?

Gonna see if the B20A5 has an external ignitor and get one, try that.

[LX-incredible]

Did you use shielded wire for the crankshaft position sensor?

[Ichiban]

Did you use shielded wire for the crankshaft position sensor?

The wire harness is basically unchanged. I simply de-loomed it, removed the excess garbage, re-organised the alternator wiring to go to the front of the block instead of the back (yes, the white/red to the ECU is connected still), then connected the wires that went outside of the harness where they needed to go and loomed it back up.

So, to answer the question, yes, the distributer crank sensor, CYL and TDC sensors retain their OEM shielded wires.

To answer my own question, I went to the wreckers, got an ignitor from some 3g EFI Prelude assuming it was correct for ECU timed spark, and plugged it in. With the ECU trigger wire plugged into the original 82's hall effect distributer harness, I got spark, and the engine fired and ran momentairly with some gas chucked down the intake.

In case anyone cares, the proper ignitor for the ECU controlled spark has about 11.5 volts at the white wire when plugged in and energized. It also looks identical to the 82 Accords ignitor, except for the number and logo on the front.

Questions!:

Adding the ignitor also eliminated the PGM-IG code 4, and now the check engine light turns off after about 3 seconds of the ECU powering up. Is this normal function? This is actually my first PGM-FI Honda.

How the hell is the fuel pump relay wired? My Haynes book seems to think it's inside the main relay, but it's obviously not. Where do the wires go?

[LX-incredible]

Theres actually 2 relays inside the PGM-FI main relay. One that is energized by the ignition switch (powers the injectors, ecu, and solenoids in the black box), and one that is energized when the ecu grounds the green/black wire (fuel pump).

[AccordB20A]

turn on the key and the light should come on, you will hear the fuel pump prime if its hooked to the main relay correctly and after a second or two it turns off

[Ichiban]

turn on the key and the light should come on, you will hear the fuel pump prime if its hooked to the main relay correctly and after a second or two it turns off

Well, at least I got the check light part right..

Theres actually 2 relays inside the PGM-FI main relay. One that is energized by the ignition switch (powers the injectors, ecu, and solenoids in the black box), and one that is energized when the ecu grounds the green/black wire (fuel pump).

Okay, I see where the the green/black goes to the main relay, but then the main relay outputs to yellow/black that goes to another small relay that is physically attached to the side of the PJ5. This relay outputs yellow/black and black wires to a body grommet, presumably these went to the fuel pump. There is also one stray black wire that's been clipped off. Is this just a body ground? Or is it a power input? Why is this extra relay even there? Seems the main relay switches power anyways, or is the extra relay just a circuit breaker. There's no english on the damn thing.

[AccordB20A]

the relay hooked to the ecu is a prelude thing, the acords dont even have one so maybe its not needed

[Ichiban]

I wired in the little relay anyways, seeing as I got the prelude pump. Idiot question, but what the hell is the firing order. My spare engine came wired 1-3-4-2 from the distributer side, with 1 on the distributer being at about 2 O clock. It runs like pure bag. Every other Honda I've seen is wired 1-3-4-2 from the cam pulley end.

[AccordB20A]

longest lead is 1, then 3 4 2 and looking at the dizzy the one at the top on the firewall side is number 1 i believe

[Ichiban]

Weird, I set it to TDC after fixing the cam timing and the rotor was pointing at bottom left (firewall) post. Seems to be where it likes to run.

I was wondering if I could rig the unused AC or AT idle solenoids to come on when the headlights are on and the alternator bogs the idle down. I'm disappointed the 4th wire on the alternator doesn't do a fucking thing useful like what I just suggested. Other than to keep the MIL off, what does it actually do? I went to a lot of trouble to keep it.

[AccordB20A]

maybe it has some sort of thing in the black box to make the idle go higher or maybe it will play with the ign timing fucked if i know. i never have it connected :)

[2oodoor]

That has to be a signal for the ECM to know operating voltage. I would think though that as much as Honda strived to have a perfectly smooth running car (black box) at all times, that this would adjust idle as needed per alternator load.
OBD II does that but I dunno about pre OBD across models.
If you need wiring diagrams for any examples pm me

[Ichiban]

Kay reviving this due to ongoing issues. I've been driving the car for a few months now and have some annoying problems I can't get rid of.

Basically, car runs decent cold. Elevated idle, power everywhere, no stumbling, bogging etc...

When it's hot, it sucks. It will lurch, smoke, bog on acceleration, stumble, and die. It idles barely with the idle air screw turned most of the way out. it stinks like gas.

I have/did:
-new B20A5 distributer /wires
-new thermostat
-swapped TW sensor
-swapped MAP
-swapped and recalibrated TPS
-checked timing (it bounces around at idle)
-checked cam timing
-new fuel pump/lines
-new bosch 02 sensor
-used prelude b20a5 ignitor
-swapped "other" cam position sensor, CYL or TDC, whatever one is on the exhaust cam.
-civic short ram w\k+n cone filter.
-new NGK plugs.

What might be wrong:
-fuel, either pressure, injectors or delivery? If it runs fine cold, where fuel demand is greatest, it should be fine, right?
-ignition, I'm using the coil from the 82 engine, which i belive is a low voltage coil, possibly the plug gap is too big for a proper spark? Maybe the plugs are wrong? I'm also stealing power from the positive side of the ign coil to run the ECU, maybe this is making problems, but why only when hot?
-02 sensor, maybe this one is DOA, how do you diagnose it? I can't find the specs for it anywhere (even after days of searching the forum?!)
-could it be something idiotic? Like the position of the moon and the stars? I'm getting tired of this, theres like 4 sensors on this engine, why don't they work?

I appreciate any help on this..

[AccordB20A]

thats strange. is your return line big enough ? is your FPR in working condition

[Ichiban]

I changed out the fittings in the return line to ones with a bigger ID. Made no difference whatsoever. Should throw on the fuel pressure gauge and drive with it this time.