Car: 1987 Accord LXi 5spd. hatchback late production. Owned it since new.
Clutch failed (would not dis-engaged - reason unknown - suspect foreign matter may have jammed it - locking it up.
Question: what year / model did the GM series transmission come in (SN GM3412XXX)
It sure isn't the A2 "normally" found in Accords... I'd like to know what to order (axles, etc.)...
Last edited by 87.3dr.lxi; 10-25-2010 at 11:04 AM. Reason: remove unimportant content
Just a question, did you have both dowel pins installed correctly between the engine and trans? And i would def replace the clutch if i had it apart... how many miles are on this car? If you have a crack in the trans case, its only going to get worse. I would, at the very least, drill the housing right at end of the crack to stop it from getting longer.
429whp 362wtq A20 TURBO. A20T>*
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Last edited by 87.3dr.lxi; 10-25-2010 at 11:01 AM.
i didnt fully finish reading the post but maybe the peice of aluminum got stuck between the clutch and flywheel/pressure plate.
thanks mkymonkey
Did you check to make sure all the flywheel to crank bolts are still in place? I had one back out on me and wedged between the flywheel and clutch disc. It made the car direct drive and the clutch would not work. I had to thow the trans into neutral before it would stop. I was pulling the car into my garage and was going slow in first gear. Also, check the starter for missing pieces, start gear etc. Let us know what you find.
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Last edited by 87.3dr.lxi; 10-25-2010 at 11:00 AM.
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Last edited by 87.3dr.lxi; 10-25-2010 at 11:00 AM.
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Last edited by 87.3dr.lxi; 10-25-2010 at 10:59 AM.
5, 4, 3, 2, 1 Link to pictures, etc.: {hopefully;}
http://comcents.com/accords/
It's hard for me to blame Troy too much. A good, working 3g MT is getting very hard to find. I went through three before I finally got a good one. I suspect Troy had similar difficulties. Wrecking yards harvest parts from cars just before they go to the crusher. As such, you get what you get. Sometimes they are garbage and Troy wouldn't really have a lot of control over that. If he was a schmuck, he would have tried to weasel out when the first trans went bad. Instead, he went looking for six months, trying to find a good one for you. His wrecker probably couldn't find the right trans, told Troy that the Prelude trans would work and so that's the direction he went. If he didn't read up on a discussion board somewhere that the clutch needed modification, he wouldn't have known. He made a business decision that you would rather have your car running, if imperfect, than not running. This obviously isn't your "baby" if you use it to tow stuff, so he did the best he could. The Prelude trans will work just fine and I don't think the MPG is really an issue. The Preludes were geared low so that they would get great off-the-line performance. You've had worse fuel economy, but lots more fun with this trans. Honestly, if you were using it to tow stuff, then it was better to have it geared lower. That's my two cents anyway.
You obviously have some minor damage to the case, but it looks as if you know how to take care of that. The one area I would inspect carefully is the clutch fork. If it is cracked or bent, it could appear to operate properly out of the car, but would fail when put under a load. If there were clearance problems, then that fork has probably had to put up with a lot more abuse than it was engineered to handle, so again, check it closely.
All in all, I don't think things are too bad. MT's last for a very, very long time if properly cared for, so I don't think you need to go searching for another one, unless the MPG issue really has you down. If you do go searching, you will probably have a lot of trouble finding a good one. I'd say just swap out the fork (if it's bad) with a junkyard replacement, put in the correct clutch disks, make a mental note that the speedo reads high and continue to enjoy the car.
Last edited by Dr_Snooz; 10-27-2010 at 07:14 PM.
Dr_Snooz
"I like to take hammers, and just break stuff, just break stuff." - Beavis
1989 Honda Accord LX-i Coupe, 240k miles, MT swap, rear disc swap
Shop manual downloads available here: CLICK TO VIEW
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Last edited by 87.3dr.lxi; 10-25-2010 at 10:59 AM.
I did read your page and all of your lengthy posts. I'm not saying Troy's the greatest guy in the world. I am just willing to give him the benefit of the doubt based on my own experience and your version of the story. I'm not saying you have to love him or take your car back to him. I just hope you see that there's room for reasonable doubt here. It's hard to find good parts for these cars. Like I said, I went through 3 transmissions and numerous wrecking yards throughout California before I got a good one for mine. The one that's in the car now came from Florida. It took me several months and a failed rebuild too. That's not because I'm a crook or Troy's a crook. That's because we're trying to keep very old cars running without spending a fortune. I really don't think you would have had any better luck anywhere else. If what you are saying is true, then every other shop in town would have sourced their parts from Troy anyway, so you'd still be in the same boat. You could have gone to the dealer and paid $3000 for a rebuild or just gone to the used car lot and bought another car. You didn't want to do that and Troy was there to help. Don't hate on him all over the web for it.
Getting back to your car, I don't think you need to rebuild the transmission for some minor damage to the case. I also think you should inspect your clutch fork carefully.
If the damaged case is really on your mind, then get a used transmission from the wrecking yard for $100-500 and a rebuild kit for $200 and rebuild your own. Just don't expect to have any better luck than Troy did.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
Dr_Snooz
"I like to take hammers, and just break stuff, just break stuff." - Beavis
1989 Honda Accord LX-i Coupe, 240k miles, MT swap, rear disc swap
Shop manual downloads available here: CLICK TO VIEW
Well this seems to be more of a bash thread but ill weigh in that I have used Troys for parts before.
As far as service I make it a standard rule not to get service work at a junkyard.
That all said I think you found that the problem is the trans is wrong, there some parts that ground into the housing and hung the clutch on you.
If you want to keep the car I would find the correct transmission for the car and start all over.
If you don't do you own work Mirah's did good work on my siblings car at the time. he employs kids like engineers from school and seemed very honest to me. Also his son is/was the best damn guitarist I ever heard period. I don't know if hes still in business or not.
EDIT:
Nall's Automobile Repair- more info »
1100 13th St E # 12, Tuscaloosa, AL (205) 752-9276 () 2.9 mi E
1 review
"Myrus Nalls is the most honest mechanic in Tuscaloosa. I've known Myrus ..."
wp
Last edited by Oldblueaccord; 10-24-2010 at 01:59 PM. Reason: added in info
1988 Lxi owner since August 1995
336k miles running strong!
Now running E85.
Oldblueaccord <<< MY YOUTUBE PAGE!
Still haven't identified this transmission. Talked to Honda Corp., California - their on-line reference doesn't list it (apparently doesn't go back beyond 1990); talked to two dealerships - nothing.
A transmission rebuild place while not identifying it directly - did at least straighten out the GM1 vs. GM3 issue - (thanks to the nice people at drivetrain.com). The GM1 and GM2 transmissions are Civic - while they are 99% sure the GM3 is not. GS and GY transmissions are 1984/85 Prelude - Their opinion is GM3 may be a JDM or "special" version of one of those... perhaps with some special gear set (which might explain the speedometer being off - and higher than before RPM going down the road)...
I've had a couple of emails wanting to know if I'm sure the about the GM... the transmission has a tag with GM34112XXX s/n on it - in the usual place for Hondas - here is a pix top of the page here: http://www.comcents.com/accords you can see for yourself.
The only reference so far that lists anything for the GM3 only shows numbers for the front pinion bearing and differential bearing - and noting they are the same for the GS and GY... The same differential bearing is also used in the A2Q5 (the transmission that belongs in my car).
So - still looking...
Last edited by 87.3dr.lxi; 10-25-2010 at 01:13 PM.
This is in reply to Dr. Snooz - both an acknowledgment he was right - and a thanks.
I found this post of yours interesting:
"I got my warranty replacement transmission last week. Instead of the '88-'89 E2R5 transmission, however, they sent me an '86-'87 A2Q5 ...{and then}... Am I being way too much of a weinie? Does anyone know if the A2Q5 is better, stronger, lighter or anything that might make me want it over the E2R5? Should I call up the yard and ask for an E2R5 and take my chances that they won't have one?
I guess we're more alike than I first suspected. If wanting the right thing is "weenie" - then so be it. While I still think Troy didn't do us any favors by "dumping" us in Howards shop (Howard Sellers is Troy's brother - who's shop is not of the same - ah - class act as Troy's) whining about it won't change a thing. Slight mis-match of gearing, etc. is one thing - parts hitting and chewing themselves up is quite another... And "right parts" don't do that.
One point you made- and seeing the pictures you posted convinced me you are absolutely right about that - if it ain't the right transmission (not even close to being right) then get the right one. The transmission you show is SIGNIFICANTLY different than what WAS in my car... Time to fix that - and for poking me in that direction - I thank you.
I located "the correct" one this afternoon after contacting more than a dozen salvage dealers in Alabama, Mississippi, Florida, Louisiana region). Several "thought" they had a transmission that would work - two turned out to be GYs (1984/5 vs. 86/7 - and as we already know - MIGHT bolt up but not right); several were E2Q5/6's (88/89) and so on. Having the knowledge of *exactly* which transmission I wanted - and making the effort myself to insure that's what I was getting - I *think* I have solved my "issue". I'll get the transmission in a few days - of course I'll make sure it's in reasonable condition - i.e. case, etc. OK - I'll put a kit in it if I need to.
Again -- thanks for the "poke" in the right direction... I will admit - I was having great angst thinking about putting that absolutely wrong transmission back in - and wondering what would tear up this time (I'm lucky the teeth on the ring gear don't show obvious damage - why chance that again????).
randy g.
I know what it's like to be a perfectionist, so I feel your pain. I don't even bother to take my car to the shop anymore. It always comes back wrong and I end up re-doing the repairs myself anyway. *Sigh*
Sounds like you have a clear plan and are feeling a little better about things, which is great. If you strike out at the wrecking yard, I've been having really good luck with my rebuild from Man-Trans (http://www.manual-transmission.com/).
Be sure to take lots of pics of the rebuild and keep us posted on your progress. Then stick around and share the knowledge you gain with others.
Good luck.
Dr_Snooz
"I like to take hammers, and just break stuff, just break stuff." - Beavis
1989 Honda Accord LX-i Coupe, 240k miles, MT swap, rear disc swap
Shop manual downloads available here: CLICK TO VIEW
Well, I think we're all on the same page now - that's appreciated. I picked up the A2Q5 this morning. On first "look" it appears to be in *very* good condition - supposedly 121K on it. Was pulled off the engine yesterday - and is VERY clean, with no signs of abuse or trouble. I'll know more this weekend when I'll have a chance to really go through it - but so far (turning by hand, shifting, etc.) it feels very good - smooth - not loose - no perceptible backlash. At least it's the "right" transmission... and with it sitting beside the one that came out - there are a LOT of differences - subtle but definitely noticeable. The NOT subtle difference, of course - is the distance between the input shaft and various points around the bell housing where the fly wheel / clutch pressure plate "resides" - at least 1/4 inch more clearance in the A2Q5 than the GM-3. Something to watch out for if a salvage parts place says they have something that will work... Also where the starter mounts is quite a bit different. Of course we'd sorta figured that out from the missing aluminum...
Thanks for the help so far - We'll probably be needing more advice before we're done....
Come to think of it - While the transmission is out - should we think about replacing the rear main seal? Something around there must be leaking - because the inside of the bell housing was full of oil/muck/sludge. I noticed that the "new" one is pretty clean by comparison...
What does it take (beyond pulling the flywheel) to replace that seal?
Thanks...
Randy G.
The rear main is an easy change. I did mine when I had my trans out. Of course, I have a leak coming from inside my bellhousing now, which is either the trans input shaft seal (my guess) or the rear main seal. I'll be dropping the trans in the next few weeks to find out for sure. The rear main seals seem to be good for 300k miles, though, so a change may not be necessary. If you do change it, the best trick is to use the old seal to drive the new one in.
Sounds like you got a good transmission. The MTs like to lose 5th gear. It sits right under the end cap. Take off the cap and inspect everything to make sure that 5th is okay and that the shaft splines aren't chewed up.
Dr_Snooz
"I like to take hammers, and just break stuff, just break stuff." - Beavis
1989 Honda Accord LX-i Coupe, 240k miles, MT swap, rear disc swap
Shop manual downloads available here: CLICK TO VIEW
You are probably right. I mentioned "the leak" to Sherry- and whether it was the rear seal... She zipped under with a good light and did some checking - she thinks the oil is coming from the right front corner of the valve cover - (and it is a MESS in that area!) and ran down into the bellhousing. She says most of the oil visible on the back of the engine (i.e. around the rear seal) except for the front 1/4 or so is pretty clean. Since that GM-3 trans flange had some gaps between it and the engine's block - oil could leak into that area really easy - and it appears that's (at least the major) source of oil. So we're going to let the seal be for now.Originally Posted by Dr_Snooz
I'm putting that on the "to do list" for tomorrow. Sounds like a good idea. We plan on flushing the transmission out with a couple quarts of oil anyway - just to make sure nothing got into it. Since the fifth gear set is "out back" - that would make it easier to flush them as well... I've heard one of the major contributors to fifth getting chewed up is because oil flow to "back there" can be an issue... and someone not knowing what they are doing and putting 90 weight gear oil in one of these transmissions - just signs fifth's "death warrant"...Sounds like you got a good transmission. The MTs like to lose 5th gear. It sits right under the end cap. Take off the cap and inspect everything to make sure that 5th is okay and that the shaft splines aren't chewed up.
Tomorrow should *almost* be fun (I *hated* the idea of putting that other "thing" back in our car)...
best
rg
Well- didn't get as much done as we'd have liked to - but some other obligations took some time - that's just life around here!...
The "page" has been updated with what little we did get done...
http://www.comcents.com/accords/
Unfortunately both this week and the coming weekend are pretty full - so there may not be much progress for a while (next weekend is the Soule' Live Steam Fest and Queen and Crescent Railfest - and Sherry and I are the "staff" photographers - you can see previous years "stuff" here:
http://www.glimpsesofmeridian.com
At least the '91 isn't getting any worse... come to think of it - using a gallon of water every 20 miles or so almost makes it a "live steamer" (Randy trying to keep a good sense of humor about all this!!!)
Progress report - Two steps forward - one step back.
Work has been a little crazy lately - so not had any time to work on "the project" until this weekend. Transmission is in, behind the new clutch - the new clutch cable is in- Things moving right along - until the latest "ooops"...
Seems that the axles are "custom" - which actually kinda makes sense; considering the Prelude transmission... I'd checked the "outer" splines - 26 just as one would expect on a 3rd gen accord- so I didn't check further. However - I should have checked the spline count on the inner ends - as well as the overall length. Turns out the inner spline count is 25 (vs. 27 as should be for a 3rd gen accord); and the axles are a tad short. The right axle is almost the right length - but the spline section is about 3/4 inch short. The left side is seriously short - not only in spline length - but also "reach" - i.e. from the hub to the transaxle oil seal as well... So time to get a pair of axles. Since these are "custom" - I'll have to buy new ones - since those don't require a trade-in "core"...
At least the method we came up with to "substitute" for a "real" transmission jack worked extremely well... I'll post pictures soon - probably tomorrow.
At least it doesn't appear I'll have to replace the hubs; I *think* these are "stock" 3rd gen accord hubs - spline count is right - I just need to verify that the diameter of the splines are right - as well as the thickness (between where the axle bottoms on the inboard side of the hub --- and where the spindle nut lands on the outside).
Anyone happen to have those numbers?
I bought some rebuilt axles from Napa. They were worse than the ones I took out. They clacked around every corner and I feared they would fail completely and take out my fender. I swapped them out for some EMPI's that I got from Drivewire.com and have been very pleased since.
Isn't it wonderful undoing someone else's mess?
I can't wait to see your trans jack. I had to break down and go buy one.
Dr_Snooz
"I like to take hammers, and just break stuff, just break stuff." - Beavis
1989 Honda Accord LX-i Coupe, 240k miles, MT swap, rear disc swap
Shop manual downloads available here: CLICK TO VIEW
While these new ones are made in China - they look pretty good, and fit OK. I did have to "bump" them a bit to fully seat them in the differential, but the hub end fit really nice - slid right in.
Oh, yeah - like another hobby. https://www.3geez.com/forum/images/smilies/frown.gifIsn't it wonderful undoing someone else's mess?
Picture and description posted on the page: http://www.comcents.com/accords/I can't wait to see your trans jack. I had to break down and go buy one.
Finished the "install" this morning - took it around the block. Won't stay in 2nd. even if I try to "hold" it in 2nd pulling back on the shift lever. 1st jumped out a couple of time - but if I made *sure* it was fully in 1st - it'd hold - even under fair acceleration. 3rd - 5th and reverse seem fine - so maybe it's a shift linkage thing... I don't have any more time to work on it - due to other "things" that demand some time (work, trying to get ready for the Holidays, - and just last evening - my mother was rushed to the emergency room - still running tests - don't know how serious it is https://www.3geez.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif).
From the looks of it - I may wind up doing the same. If I have to pull this one out, put the prelude in temporarily while having this one rebuilt (or doing it myself) - then exchange them again once the accord trans is "fixed"... It'd be nice to have "the real deal"...
Regarding the replacement trans... checked the shift linkage - it's as it should be. Also - I noticed that in reverse something doesn't "feel" right - like something is dragging (though might be the brakes - since they haven't been exercised in quite a while - and as you know the back are drums). A new car is looking better and better. (sigh).
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