1988 A20A3 Rebuild/Preformance

[88lxi-shortram]

can we use b16 ITBs?... it may be the same as the manifold right?

[stat1K]

^ this would be correct, however, most itbs kits are either too expensive or just plain junk in the lower end. you'd be better off getting a manifold and cutting it up to adapt a set of itbs to.

definitely would be cheaper.

although, recently on carolinahondas.com i saw a set from a modified b16 manifold for 250-300.

[Sickest3G]

I don't know if the B16 LSD will fit. I was asking if it really did fit into the A20 tranny cause 2drse-i mantioned it did.

[2drSE-i]

I don't know if the B16 LSD will fit. I was asking if it really did fit into the A20 tranny cause 2drse-i mantioned it did.

According to Quaife, who are very well known lsd manufacturers, the B16 LSD fits with the A20 speedometer gear.

[hammer3rd]

I don't know if the B16 LSD will fit. I was asking if it really did fit into the A20 tranny cause 2drse-i mantioned it did.

Sorry. All clear now.

[hammer3rd]

According to Quaife, who are very well known lsd manufacturers, the B16 LSD fits with the A20 speedometer gear.

Cool. Now thanks for the info on the lsd. LOL.

[hammer3rd]

Let me ask this. Has anyone had good/bad luck with the b16/18 intake mod. And if so do you have any hp numbers to go with it.

[88lxi-shortram]

idk if anyone has numbers but i know plenty of people have had luck. i myself plan on doing it once my cars up and running.

[hammer3rd]

idk if anyone has numbers but i know plenty of people have had luck. i myself plan on doing it once my cars up and running.

Thats what I thought from what I had read. I am not wanting to make a ton of power just a little tweek. As I said if I can get 140 to the wheels I will be very happy.

[stat1K]

hammer, you dyno'd it yet to see where you're at now? i know 120 was the stock flywheel measurement i'm curious how much it's at now, because if you're like most of the stock cars i've seen, 95-100 is about what you will be running, so a 40% increase might be a little much to hope for without major work. i know you mentioned that you are willing to do major work but i dunno if you wanna do this much.

[mushroom_toy]

hammer, you dyno'd it yet to see where you're at now? i know 120 was the stock flywheel measurement i'm curious how much it's at now, because if you're like most of the stock cars i've seen, 95-100 is about what you will be running, so a 40% increase might be a little much to hope for without major work. i know you mentioned that you are willing to do major work but i dunno if you wanna do this much.

I think 140 whp is attainable. With a fresh engine with some timing and fuel mods im pretty sure you could see up to 120whp. My 440k mile motor with bad compression and shot rings on 2 cyls. was putting down around 92hp and 95 ft lbs. to the wheels. That was with just an intake and running rich.

I think it really all depends on how fresh the motors gonna be. Im hoping to get about the same whp out of my motor, but mainly looking for more torque. Im doing a little bit more than just manifolds, etc. No headwork though minus springs and cam, and hoping to rev to about 7200.

[stat1K]

i believe that the motor is fully capable, however, i haven't seen a car dyno over 120 without some decent modding. it makes me wonder if it's worth it since you can in fact buy b-series mounts now, throw in a b20b throw a vtec head on it and hit the 200 mark without a crazy bill.

i will say, lx-incredibles car, lx-i coupe with the integra tranny mod - obd1- cold air-header-2.5" catback and high flow muffler, is probably the quickest 3g i've driven and it didn't feel terribly fast, he has said on numerous occasions that my crx felt faster and it was rocking a 1.5l with only i/h/e.

in summary, 140 is attainable, but is it worth it on the A? i guess if you're keen on keeping wiring stock, not welding, and not mixing and matching axles it is.

[2ndGenGuy]

87roach put down 129whp on a stock ECU, cam, I/H/E and 1mm oversize exhaust valves and otherwise stock internals. That's a bit over 150bhp. I imagine with ITBs, you would open that intake up a bit more, and with a tunable ECU you might be able to squeeze out another 10hp.

[mushroom_toy]

87roach put down 129whp on a stock ECU, cam, I/H/E and 1mm oversize exhaust valves and otherwise stock internals. That's a bit over 150bhp. I imagine with ITBs, you would open that intake up a bit more, and with a tunable ECU you might be able to squeeze out another 10hp.

Ill be dynoing my motor as soon as I drop it in and break it in...so Ill give you a head up guys. Ill be dynoing first without the itbs, injectors, and my settings adjusted all the way. Then once im on the money tuning wise Ill be swapping everything out, tuning and going back to the dyno. SO 1st dyno will be stock motor bored .20 over stock head with bisimoto springs and delta 272, running an obx manifold, and probably 2.25 into a straight pipe. Probably tuned a little rich with carbed 5spd and spec stage 2+ clutch.

[hammer3rd]

Thanks guys for all the help and input. I dont want a very lopy cam/idle
for my car. I wont mind a little but dont want a lot.


Here is a little of what I am thinking of doing.

83 mm pistons in a 10 1/2 CPR Or what ever it takes to get 10 1/2 CPR
Colt stage 1 triflow cam/Bisimoto stage 2 cam??? Dont quite know which one yet. Any personel experience would help.
Mild P&P head with 1 mm bigger valves,bisimoto springs and bronze guides.
B16/18 intake and throttle body.
OBD1 conversion.
Some kind of header(choices are slim)and exhaust.
And a good quality bottom end rebuild.

So tell me what you guys think. Looking foward to hearing what you think.

And tell me about the delta 272 cam. Does it have a very bad idle?

[stat1K]

i haven't heard anyone complain about the 272, it's pretty mild, most people say they notice a gain but i'd doubt if you actually felt one right off. maybe combined with the others. the biggest thing is to have someone tune the whole setup, the problem is literally NO ONE knows what the a20 wants, most of those dudes are used to tuning 16v sohc or 16v dohc honda motors, 12v sohc is kinda different. i'd imagine if you got the most competent tuner out there that might help some guys were supposed to do lx-incredibles but they kinda had a falling out with their tuner and he doesn't work with them anymore, otherwise i would have more info on that.

the basemap from the pr4 seems decent on his mostly stock motor but it richens out a little at bottom end and leans out some at top. so some tweaking or a street tune would do wonders.

i think your build sounds pretty good. i'd go with a skunk2 b-series manifold and port it to a slightly larger TB. I've read tons on TB sizes and it doesn't seem like the biggest is always the best, now that's from an sohc standpoint (d-series) a lot of guys lost more hp with a large tb and gained more hp with an appropriate size (58-60mm). granted that's a significantly different power band as there is absolutely no low end torque in a d-motor and they don't start power until at least 3.5k.

camming a 4cyl isn't a lot like camming with a huge duration cam in a big block, you hardly ever will get cam lope until you're up in the stage 3 zone from what i've seen/heard/dealt with.

[87roach]

Thanks John, I was also running the colt stage 1 cam, and the head has been ported too.

On the tuning note, it would really nice to know more.. I'd like to delve into it but it's a bit scary. Although it would be sweet to get some more jam by just switching up a few numbers..

[stat1K]

roach, get yourself a wideband, a data logger, and a chip burner and you'll be good to go.

i myself would like to go this route so i could start making my own maps and testing shit out, theres even a guy selling a wideband w/ datalogging output in one right now on craigslist for 100. i just don't have the money. if i could get a hold of the stuff i'd just send it to lx-incredible to let him tinker because i know he's more than capable.

[mushroom_toy]

^Or wideband and piggyback, thats what im running at the moment. Works perfectly fine.

[hammer3rd]

i haven't heard anyone complain about the 272, it's pretty mild, most people say they notice a gain but i'd doubt if you actually felt one right off. maybe combined with the others. the biggest thing is to have someone tune the whole setup, the problem is literally NO ONE knows what the a20 wants, most of those dudes are used to tuning 16v sohc or 16v dohc honda motors, 12v sohc is kinda different. i'd imagine if you got the most competent tuner out there that might help some guys were supposed to do lx-incredibles but they kinda had a falling out with their tuner and he doesn't work with them anymore, otherwise i would have more info on that.

the basemap from the pr4 seems decent on his mostly stock motor but it richens out a little at bottom end and leans out some at top. so some tweaking or a street tune would do wonders.

i think your build sounds pretty good. i'd go with a skunk2 b-series manifold and port it to a slightly larger TB. I've read tons on TB sizes and it doesn't seem like the biggest is always the best, now that's from an sohc standpoint (d-series) a lot of guys lost more hp with a large tb and gained more hp with an appropriate size (58-60mm). granted that's a significantly different power band as there is absolutely no low end torque in a d-motor and they don't start power until at least 3.5k.

camming a 4cyl isn't a lot like camming with a huge duration cam in a big block, you hardly ever will get cam lope until you're up in the stage 3 zone from what i've seen/heard/dealt with.

I am afraid of big intakes. Dont want to loose any more bottom than I have to is why I am looking at the stock B16/18 intake and throttle body. And as far as tuning goes anyone with the propper setup can tune any engine. It requires the propper censors tuning equipment and a dyno and I forgot a lot of dang money LOL.
Oh and look at this old thread and see what you think of the products Thanks again for all the input, It really helps when you have never built a motor of this kind. https://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72262

[87roach]

roach, get yourself a wideband, a data logger, and a chip burner and you'll be good to go.

i myself would like to go this route so i could start making my own maps and testing shit out, theres even a guy selling a wideband w/ datalogging output in one right now on craigslist for 100. i just don't have the money. if i could get a hold of the stuff i'd just send it to lx-incredible to let him tinker because i know he's more than capable.

I've got all that man, and more. I just haven't had the time to install it yet. I'll be getting all that installed over the winter!

[hammer3rd]

roach. Did you say you had a colt cam. If so how does it perform.

[cygnus x-1]

can we use b16 ITBs?... it may be the same as the manifold right?

^ this would be correct, however, most itbs kits are either too expensive or just plain junk in the lower end. you'd be better off getting a manifold and cutting it up to adapt a set of itbs to.

The biggest issues with ITBs are sticking throttle plates, bore size, and tuning. The cheaper ones tend to have problems with the throttle plates sticking at idle. Not a big deal for racing but for street driving it sucks. The bore size needs to not be so big that they dump in tons of air as soon as they're cracked open. For an A20, no bigger than 45mm. Tuning is also essential for them to work properly. A standalone ECU (or OBD1 conversion) is required because the fueling needs to be controlled by throttle position instead of manifold pressure at mid to high throttle.
Hopefully I'll be able to get mine running right next spring. I just didn't have the time to put into them last fall.

i haven't heard anyone complain about the 272, it's pretty mild, most people say they notice a gain but i'd doubt if you actually felt one right off. maybe combined with the others.

For reference, the Colt stage 1 is 260/270 on the intakes and 274 on the exhaust. These are ok but the lift is not much over stock. The Bisi/Web cams use a higher lift, which I think should be better with the A20 (my own theory based on the short rod/stroke ratio creating high piston speed and a strong intake suction).

the biggest thing is to have someone tune the whole setup, the problem is literally NO ONE knows what the a20 wants, most of those dudes are used to tuning 16v sohc or 16v dohc honda motors, 12v sohc is kinda different.

The process of tuning would be the same but as far as knowing what parameters make best power, you're right. From my own tuning I can tell a couple things though. For one these engines LOVE cold air. Anything you can do to get colder air in the engine means more power. They also need lots of timing. The wider combustion chamber makes for a longer burn time, so it needs to start sooner. 35 degrees is good at WOT above 3500RPM. At light throttle having the advance come in strong at 2000RPM makes the throttle response much more snappy.

These engines don't do well with lean mixtures either. 16:1 is about the leanest you can go without getting significant misfiring. 15.5 is good for light throttle cruise. 13.0:1 is a good target for WOT and also for idle. Although mine seems to like low 12s at idle for some reason.

The best I was able to do with my old intake setup was 120WHP, calculated from datalogs from the Megasquirt. That was with a fresh stock A20 bottom end, stock head with minimal head work, Colt stage 1 cam, B18A intake manifold, and S&S header. I never did make up a proper cold air intake though so it might have squeaked out a little more.

the basemap from the pr4 seems decent on his mostly stock motor but it richens out a little at bottom end and leans out some at top. so some tweaking or a street tune would do wonders.

For timing I started with a stock P75 map and added more advance at WOT and right off idle. That worked pretty well.

i think your build sounds pretty good. i'd go with a skunk2 b-series manifold and port it to a slightly larger TB. I've read tons on TB sizes and it doesn't seem like the biggest is always the best, now that's from an sohc standpoint (d-series) a lot of guys lost more hp with a large tb and gained more hp with an appropriate size (58-60mm).

As long as the TB isn't a restriction there's no reason to go bigger.

On the tuning note, it would really nice to know more.. I'd like to delve into it but it's a bit scary. Although it would be sweet to get some more jam by just switching up a few numbers..

Do it man! As long as you have a backup of a good working tune you can always revert to it if you mess something up.

I'll tell you though, tuning timing on the street is difficult if you're trying for best power. It's best to do it on a brake dyno so you can get a simulated constant load.


C|

[87roach]

Some great info there Chris!

The thing for me is, I seem to have all the right gear to tune my machine but no experience in what these engines want. So really I am just going on what everyone has been posting.

My point being is that yes dyno is the best, but when I don't know how to tune that seems like a money pit! I'd be better off playing around on the street to get a feel of things before getting on the dyno, then again I might just take it to someone.. I'll have to see how it is once I get that far.

As for the colt cam I think it's pretty good, Chris had a good post before where he said pretty much what I think of it. Once you get to 3k it feels good haha

I'm not sure I'll be using the colt for turbo though, maybe one of the bisi cams?

[hammer3rd]

The biggest issues with ITBs are sticking throttle plates, bore size, and tuning. The cheaper ones tend to have problems with the throttle plates sticking at idle. Not a big deal for racing but for street driving it sucks. The bore size needs to not be so big that they dump in tons of air as soon as they're cracked open. For an A20, no bigger than 45mm. Tuning is also essential for them to work properly. A standalone ECU (or OBD1 conversion) is required because the fueling needs to be controlled by throttle position instead of manifold pressure at mid to high throttle.
Hopefully I'll be able to get mine running right next spring. I just didn't have the time to put into them last fall.


Man thanks a bunch for all this info. I dont care what cam I use as long as it idles well. A little bumb is ok but not much. And I want a higher CPR to boost low end power around 10.5. And am going to have a wad in the head. A P&P and larger valves with bronze guides. Everything else will be pretty much what you guys say works best.


For reference, the Colt stage 1 is 260/270 on the intakes and 274 on the exhaust. These are ok but the lift is not much over stock. The Bisi/Web cams use a higher lift, which I think should be better with the A20 (my own theory based on the short rod/stroke ratio creating high piston speed and a strong intake suction).




The process of tuning would be the same but as far as knowing what parameters make best power, you're right. From my own tuning I can tell a couple things though. For one these engines LOVE cold air. Anything you can do to get colder air in the engine means more power. They also need lots of timing. The wider combustion chamber makes for a longer burn time, so it needs to start sooner. 35 degrees is good at WOT above 3500RPM. At light throttle having the advance come in strong at 2000RPM makes the throttle response much more snappy.

These engines don't do well with lean mixtures either. 16:1 is about the leanest you can go without getting significant misfiring. 15.5 is good for light throttle cruise. 13.0:1 is a good target for WOT and also for idle. Although mine seems to like low 12s at idle for some reason.

The best I was able to do with my old intake setup was 120WHP, calculated from datalogs from the Megasquirt. That was with a fresh stock A20 bottom end, stock head with minimal head work, Colt stage 1 cam, B18A intake manifold, and S&S header. I never did make up a proper cold air intake though so it might have squeaked out a little more.




For timing I started with a stock P75 map and added more advance at WOT and right off idle. That worked pretty well.




As long as the TB isn't a restriction there's no reason to go bigger.





Do it man! As long as you have a backup of a good working tune you can always revert to it if you mess something up.

I'll tell you though, tuning timing on the street is difficult if you're trying for best power. It's best to do it on a brake dyno so you can get a simulated constant load.


C|

Man thanks a bunch for all this info. I dont care what cam I use as long as it idles well. A little bumb is ok but not much. And I want a higher CPR to boost low end power around 10.5. And am going to have a wad in the head. A P&P and larger valves with bronze guides. Everything else will be pretty much what you guys say works best. And which obd1 box is best I have heard po6 but idk.