Starting Problem.

[Angelois]

Okay here I go I will be as precise as I possible can and be as detailed as possible. My car is a 1989 Honda accord LX-i 5 speed manual I got it from the previous owners who didn't drive it much in October of 2010. I knew the starter had its problems because it would click sometimes like a dead battery. The Car has about 169-170k on it and I Have recently put in new Plugs, Wires, Distributor cap/Rotor. The Battery's date on it is 01/2008 and The timing belt was done in 01/2005 less than 11k miles ago. Sometimes when I get out at night I can see a blit of smoke coming out of the head lamps and its smells kinda like burning rubber as if I did a burnout but not as strong or bad which I figure is wither a hose, Belt or the Clutch starting to go. But anyways onto the real problem.

So I replaced my starter about 2-3 weeks ago. Because All I was getting was a click sound like a dead battery no matter how many times I turned the key, So I took the starter out took it to advance and it was a bad starter so I bought a new one and replaced it and after replacing it I would get a weird start like it struggled to start and when turning the key the engine rpms would fluctuate madly like it just jumps and drop and wouldn't crank right away but started up in 3 secs or less(keep in mind it would do this every once in awhile with the old starter but mostly started up fine (like a normal car) or clicked a couple times like a dead battery).

So now today I replace my fuel filter I crank it to start it and it cranks like a normal car when the new filter was filling with gas and then it started to start and I let go and it didn't start so I turn the key again and it starts up the weird way then I make sure it wasn't leaking and shut it down.

40 minutes later I drive it from my house to the store and it starts normal then I get in it to come back home and it does the weird start 10 minutes later I go to crank it to go to the mall for some stuff and I hear the engine making a weird noise so i turned my music down and then I realize it isn't the engine its the starter not disengaging so I shut the car off and take the key out and it doesn't stop cranking so I ran inside for my tools and undid the negative terminal and it stops of course and I see a small poof of smoke which upset me

Then 20 minutes later I decide to visually look in the hood and not thinking I wanted to see what would happen if I put the negative cable back on and it sparks big and it starts cranking with no key in the ignition so I took it away from the terminal real quick.

Not the perfect car but it runs and hasn't given me problems since I've had it except for the starter actually and doing routine and required maintenance I love the car A LOT and want to keep it running and baby it as long as I possibly can, So what do you think?

[Xaisk]

Ok I know this! God I wish I had a piece of paper so its easy to draw it and explain.

Basically you have a wire going from the starter solenoid to the key. How the start works is you have a huge current of electricity flowing into the starter. When you turn the key a small bit of eletricity goes into the ignition switch and back to your starter causing some type of relay inside the solenoid to complete the connection allowing the big current of electricity to go into the starter and start. Its designed this way so you dont have to have a massive amount of current flowing into your cabin. These remans are pieces of crap. I went through 3 before I got one that was worth it.

It sounds like the starter solenoid relay is maybe sticking or the something in the ignition module is sticking and constantly allowing electricity to flow.

Now and then my car when starting it will sound like something metal is slamming into something around the flywheel, so even this one isnt worth it. =(

[Xaisk]

Save and open the picture. My computer resized the image wrong ><

[Angelois]

Saved the Pic its still pretty rough to see, So you are saying I probably got a bar re manufactured starter, It couldn't of been the fuel that leaked out of the fuel line shorting something? Just asking I know its very very very unlikely but I figure I ask. So take the starter out and get another one in?

[Xaisk]

I think you should take the starter out and take it up to O'Reillys or Autozone and have it tested first. If it tests fine then I think you need to have your ignition key module tested to see if it is sticking or something. If the circuit in your ignition key module is always stuck on, then the starter will constantly run.

I really think its a sticky ignition key thing but I would always start with the easiest and cheapest tests before going up the chain.

[Xaisk]

Here is a repost of my ghetto diagram haha.

[88lxi-shortram]

i dont think the starter is constantly running because its the heaviest load for the battery to supply. even with the alternator going at its full 10k rpm it still would have enough power to keep the battery charged and run all neccesary electrical components. it may not even be that deep of a problem.

heres a schematic too look at.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

but yes do go it tested first before you rip your hair out testing then if its good start with the easily accessable stuff. the battery to starter connector, then the switch connector then if it all tests fine test the rest. but the way you describe the whole starting weird issue kind of reminds me of a tercel we had at the shop once. it started just like that and we couldnt figure it out for anything. about 2 weeks later the guy gets towed in and his ecm wasnt setting the correct startup idle because it was stuck in open loop i think. i didnt work on it but i remmebr the ecm was fried and the guy had to replace it.

[Angelois]

Ill go to Auto tomorrow and get it checked out, Can either of you provide me a good step by step to get at the ignition key module and possibly replace/remove it? Save me some time and frustration?

[Angelois]

SO with a partner behind the wheel I took a hammer and I moved the air duct and then hit the starter solenoid a few times and then reconnected the battery the instant the cable touched it started to crank with the key in the ACC position. I then proceeded to hit the starter again a few times and it stopped so now I have the battery reconnected and its all good but it still does its "wierd" start. I did notice the first start up after trying it a second start after the starter stopped it grinded.

Any ideas on the weird start maybe I can take a video with my phone and show exactly what I mean... Maybe again a bad starter or it needs to be shimmed? Not sure but remember it did it every once in awhile with the old broken starter in before it completely broke down.

[Oldblueaccord]

Bad and/or wrong starter.

Check all you ground connections as well.


wp

[Dr_Snooz]

x3 on bad starter.

[Angelois]

Well, I'm 99% sure the starter is the right one I personally took it out took it to the shop and got a new one that matched up, The starter in the car was stock and he grabbed the new one which was a perfect match. Im going to say all the ground wires are from 1989 and look a bit "old" I know there are quite a few ground wires where are they all and how should I go about replacing them? Is there a kit I can buy? And for the reman starter being a lemon I'd put my money on that. But having good ground connections would be something I want to do anyways.

[Hauntd ca3]

the solenoid is fucked!
if you take the starter off carefuly, i bet the pinion is is in its fully engaged position, and if you removed the solenoid it will return to its at rest position.
this is caused by the battery and motor terminals welding themselves to the plunger disc inside the solenoid cap.
so as soon as the batt is connected it will go.
a way to test my theory with the starter in place is to simply remove the small wire from the start terminal and reconnect the batt.
if it cranks straight up, remove starter and throw at the head of the prick that sold it to you, then ask for a new one.
if it dosnt crank , grab a test light and stick it up the start wire and see if it lights up, remember one end of the light has to be to ground

[Angelois]

Yeah the other day after I reconnected the terminal it starter to crank the instant the terminal touched but after I hit the solenoid 3-5 times it while someone actually started the engine the cranking stopped so I've been driving ever since and it still does the weird cranking.

[Hauntd ca3]

if the starter is still cranking once the motor is running, it will fuck the starter.
instead of the starter cranking the motor, the motor will turn the starter and completely destroy it.
the clutch in the starter pinion will slip and eventually fail.
after a while it will weld itself solid and will start driving the armature at more than 20x engine revs. try figure out how long the armature will last at 100k rpm.
it aint long, i'll tell you that for free.
if the armature dosnt fly to bits first, the bearing will seize and the armature will snap, or if you are lucky just rip the housings to bits.
fix the starter now or cost your self $$ in the future

[eightyninelx]

Hi all. Does your car still start weird? I'm currently working on an '88 accord LXi that has a weird slow initial starting problem going on 2 years now. It used to start. I found out today that the I could not turn the alternator pulley by hand when it should turn freely. I think bearings may been seizing up. I think this explains my starting problem. I need another alternator to confirm this though. Hope this helps.

[Angelois]

Well, one day I left my parking lights on overnight and it drained the battery and then to recharge that battery I put an unnecessary load on the alternator and bam battery light comes on like 2 days later and I take the battery recharge it on a charger at the shop down the street and then do a load test on it in the car and it had a low charge from the alternator. SO I didnt really want to replace it as for I needed it done asap and I didnt have time myself so I had the shop do it for me and now it starts up like a champ 8/10 times Id say but every once in awhile it "starts funny" I do believe thats because I got a bad re-manufactured starter still but that new alternator helped A LOT.

[eightyninelx]

Don't those remanufactured starters usually come with a lifetime warranty?

[Angelois]

Yeah, but I'm not to sure how advanced autos warranties work I mean they could test it and it will be fine but would they even replace it if it works fine Not sure but lately its been starting fine so Im not complaining too much I will look more into it later I think but I'm more worried about fixing other small things right now.

[eightyninelx]

Gotcha. I've replaced my alternator with one from a '90 integra and so far, I haven't had any weird starts.

[Demon1024]

beefing up your grounds can make a big difference too.

[Angelois]

Yup, That what i wanted to do next.

[Angelois]

Sometimes it starts right up like a champ sometimes it does this, I went to take the starter out today before work I didn't want to start taking it out because i didn't think i had enough time I did lean a little oil off the ground wire going into the starter I don't think i noticed much a difference

View My Video

not the best video but its what i would do with my phone till i get my camera back from my buddy. The click is me turning the key and then that beeping is my radio. Then you hear how it starts.

edit: Yeah I think im gonna get that camera back and take a better video of it.

[Hauntd ca3]

Well, one day I left my parking lights on overnight and it drained the battery and then to recharge that battery I put an unnecessary load on the alternator and bam battery light comes on like 2 days later and I take the battery recharge it on a charger at the shop down the street and then do a load test on it in the car and it had a low charge from the alternator. SO I didnt really want to replace it as for I needed it done asap and I didnt have time myself so I had the shop do it for me and now it starts up like a champ 8/10 times Id say but every once in awhile it "starts funny" I do believe thats because I got a bad re-manufactured starter still but that new alternator helped A LOT.

what do you mean low charge from the alt?
if the voltage is like 13.5 volts, chances are the alt is charging its arse off at 40+ amps, which will drop the voltage quite a bit.
how long did the shop down the road charge the batt for?
if your batt is from 2008, there is a good chance its fucked, and also the clicking on the starter on the video posted, also suggests the starter could be pretty fucked as well.
the people that "TEST" starters at places other than proper auto electricians will 9 times from 10 completely fuck up a diagnosis.
like people that say a clicking starter has a fucked solenoid, where most of the time its either a buggered batt or its out of brushes.
never shag around with a reman unit or recond unit unless its from an auto electrician. take your car to a proper auto sparky and have it diagnosed properly. they prob wont even charge you to check it out .

[Dr_Snooz]

How corroded are your battery cables? By the way, you need to replace your igniter.