Refrigerant Woes

[dieselgus]

Since we are on this topic, I converted my 90 Accord to R134a using those $40 Walmart conversion kits that everyone seems to bash. Since it was for my own car and had nothing to lose, I changed all the o-rings and drier for about $30, but filled it with the r134a without get the system vacuumed "properly". It's been over 5 years now and I have not had to fill it once and it still blows nice and cold even on the odd days it hits 100F here in Vancouver. It may not be as cold as r12 but I'm actually really happy with it, especially since it was less then $80 after tax to do it.

Now just recently, it's been warming up here and I ended up doing the same thing on the SEi for the hell of it (it's already been retrofitted but the I think the o-rings were bad and had no pressure).I didn't have time to go into the US to get more of the "usual" Interdynamics r134a so after reading up on a few AC related sites, I felt comfortable enough to grab a few cans of $10 12A (the HC based stuff that's compatible with r12 and r134a) from the local parts store plus the o-rings and drier ran about $50. I actually find the 12A blows cooler than the r134a in the 4th gen just like the tech guys on the AC said.

Anyone else find this as well?? I'm in Canada so I don't know what prices the Interdynamics r134a is recently in the US (it was $8.99 for r134a and $12.99 for Arctic Freeze last fall) but I think I'll be using 12a from now on.

Hmm.....may have to give Lordco a call in the morning. My compressor went in spectacular fashion last summer and changing out the AC system is on the to do list this year. Figured while I was at it I may as well switch to some newer form of refridgerant than the R12 that is probably still in there.

[YK86]

I got my 12a from Alder Auto which is a branch of Parts Plus. I'm not too sure what Lordco carries. I know Canadian Tire has Redtek and Walmart had Duracool I think but both cost way more than $10 a can.

[dieselgus]

Even better. There is also an Alder just up 96th from the shop (Half the time dealing with the Lordco near the shop is a crapshoot. I do not reccomend the one just off 96th and 198th in behind the Wendeep/Hortons.)

[YK86]

Wow, didn't think I'd be talking to someone on 3geez about Alder Auto or the Lordco on 198th lol. I stopped going to Lordco after the couple guys I dealt with for many years left the 200th and Aldergrove locations.

Alder's prices I get are consistently lower than the 30% off bs Lordco gives me so I stopped shopping for prices. The only time I go there now is if an unexpected repair is needed late at night (Metrotown store open til midnight). I take it you work in Port Kells?

[dieselgus]

Yeah, I hear ya on late night runs up Kingsway for parts (only once, but damned handy). We get pretty solid pricing out of Lordco generally. And I usually double check on Rockauto (they will meet or beat their prices believe it or not).

For now, yeah working in Port Kells (building police cars. If you have been stopped by either a New West or Abby black and white, chances are that I built it. Whoo hoo!). Looking to move to a new shop in a couple weeks that doesn't have as much BS or an idiot owner (may the fucker go bankrupt as far as I am concerned. Can't wait to get out of there and really let people know how the place works).

And yep, probably going to switch to Alder for most of my parts needs (as rare as my care does break. Mostly slowly replacing 22 year old, 330,000km worn stuff lately)

[YK86]

Wow, meet or beat Rockauto?? Must be a pretty big account to get prices like that. I spend about 15 to 20grand at Alder a year doing stuff on the side for people so they are pretty good to me but I'm sure it's peanuts compared to big shops.

Never seen the New West cars but I do see the black ones in Abby. That's actually pretty cool!

[dieselgus]

Wow, meet or beat Rockauto?? Must be a pretty big account to get prices like that. I spend about 15 to 20grand at Alder a year doing stuff on the side for people so they are pretty good to me but I'm sure it's peanuts compared to big shops.

Never seen the New West cars but I do see the black ones in Abby. That's actually pretty cool!

Naw, not that big of a shop at all. But that particular Lordco is pretty slow a lot of the time so they tend to be fairly flexible. If I need a real deal one of the guys at my shop is good buddies with the manager. But shall definately head to Alder (it is closer and easier to get to anyways. Added bonus)

Yeah, the black and whites look pretty sharp. Everything in the New west fleet is a b/w, even their forensic Dodge Sprinter and the big International that pulls their disaster command centre thing.

[Dr_Snooz]

After looking at my cans today, I'm reasonably confident you can use them without the $3 adapter. I'll verify that, but I think it's do-able.

[Dr_Snooz]

^^^ Edit: Definitely NOT doable without the adapter. *Sigh*

[ecogabriel]

You need to do a how-to. My brother is an engineer and gave me an earful about how propane is only half as efficient as R12. I kept telling him I'd heard it was equally as good, but he dropped the whole "I've done the math" deal on me. How do you argue with math?

Don't argue with math; just examine the problem assumptions and destroy 'em.

Incidentally, TWO engineers - one of them used to represent a U.S. firm selling industrial-scale refrigeration compressors (screw), and the other with 30+ years of experience in meat-packing industry- lectured me (long, long ago) on the industrial refrigerants of the time -ammonia and hydrocarbons. That was the FIRST time I heard of hydrocarbons being used as refrigerant.

Moreover, developing countries are pushing using hydrocarbons for stationary refrigeration (e.g. freezers) because they save on hard currency and royalties. I believe Greenpeace (for what it is worth) also promotes hydrocarbons.

Apparently, they are legal in Australia.... any Aussie that wants to enlighten us please???

I just picked up a couple cans for my mom's car. A can now runs $18.99. Plus, you need an adapter to connect your existing gauges to the new cans. PLUS, you have to pay a $10 core charge for each can. Out the door cost for two cans: $66. Yikes.

Propane keeps looking better. Incidentally, it is a recognized refrigerant referred to by the code R290.

THAT expensive???? I'll look up at my nearby Sam's club. I can probably snatch a 30lb. canister for not a whole lot more (double maybe?) so you'll be able to pass it to your offspring... think how much 30lb. of R-12 cost nowadays.... $$$$$!!!

Since we are on this topic, I converted my 90 Accord to R134a using those $40 Walmart conversion kits that everyone seems to bash. Since it was for my own car and had nothing to lose, I changed all the o-rings and drier for about $30, but filled it with the r134a without get the system vacuumed "properly". It's been over 5 years now and I have not had to fill it once and it still blows nice and cold even on the odd days it hits 100F here in Vancouver. It may not be as cold as r12 but I'm actually really happy with it, especially since it was less then $80 after tax to do it.

Now just recently, it's been warming up here and I ended up doing the same thing on the SEi for the hell of it (it's already been retrofitted but the I think the o-rings were bad and had no pressure).I didn't have time to go into the US to get more of the "usual" Interdynamics r134a so after reading up on a few AC related sites, I felt comfortable enough to grab a few cans of $10 12A (the HC based stuff that's compatible with r12 and r134a) from the local parts store plus the o-rings and drier ran about $50. I actually find the 12A blows cooler than the r134a in the 4th gen just like the tech guys on the AC said.

Anyone else find this as well?? I'm in Canada so I don't know what prices the Interdynamics r134a is recently in the US (it was $8.99 for r134a and $12.99 for Arctic Freeze last fall) but I think I'll be using 12a from now on.

If the system is not f@#k up, it should work.

The TSB for Acura to convert from R-12 to R-134 (I have a pdf copy somewhere) did not ask for flushing the old system; only evacuate old refrigerant, add new oil and an adequate amount of R-134.

There has been the discussion here (and on the web) about the kits and how R-12 residuals destroy R-134 oils (PAG) (which is true). In any event, those kits use POE oils that are compatible with both r-12 and r-134. For some reason, however, OE prefers PAG oils. In any event, the new "DEC" (double end capped) PAG oil is inmune to r-12 and neither decomposes nor absorbs humidity. Supercool is a DEC PAG oil. Someone did a nice demonstration of the difference between regular PAG and DEC PAG.

http://www.autoacforum.com/messagevi...threadid=17571

What apparently is death for A/C systems is using the "stop leak" cans (or so is what I heard)

Anyway, with hydrocarbons the oil issue is gone as I understand it works with mineral oils.

On a personal nore, I have two cans of R-12 but two cars using it. It is not enough for a complete fill-up in the 3G so if it loses too much R-12 I might have to go the hydrocarbon route.

[poorman212]

THAT expensive???? I'll look up at my nearby Sam's club. I can probably snatch a 30lb. canister for not a whole lot more (double maybe?) so you'll be able to pass it to your offspring... think how much 30lb. of R-12 cost nowadays....

If you can get a 30LB Cyl of R134 for less than $200, yes you could make a ton of money...heck give me a quote on a trailer load where the cyl cost less than $200 per........I'll pay freight within the US.

Now a can, never said how many OZ, for $19 sound high...but if this is an 18+ OZ can, then not too far out of line....

Why does DuPont do this to us?

[Dr_Snooz]

My Dad had the presence of mind to buy a tank of R12 just before they outlawed it. He went to use it a couple years later and it was empty. It had a faulty valve and all that precious R12 had leaked out.

[gp02a0083]

eco what you described as the r-134 conversion is practically what they typically do at any shop. they need to evacuate the r12 and collect it to have it disposed of b/c of the whole CFC's and ozone getting chewed up , the 134 is considered to be a "greener" alternative.

my father bought a case of r-12 cans and has been selling them over the years, that stuff last i looked was like $40 or $50 a can, he was telling me that the 134 went up to about $20 a can

I've converted my last two hatches to 134 without an issue at all, i had my gold hatch for 5 years, the A/c system worked like new out of the factory and still had the original A/C pump. We also converted our 91' aerostar to 134 years ago without a problem.

As a chemist i don't believe that the DEC PAG oil does not absorb water moisture, practically everything does to a certain degree, but it might be the case where the moisture adsorption /absorption is very low.

[ecogabriel]

If you can get a 30LB Cyl of R134 for less than $200, yes you could make a ton of money...heck give me a quote on a trailer load where the cyl cost less than $200 per........I'll pay freight within the US.

Now a can, never said how many OZ, for $19 sound high...but if this is an 18+ OZ can, then not too far out of line....

Why does DuPont do this to us?

Last time I saw those bit cylinders, they were below $200 I am pretty sure. But I have seen the news here and found the EPA ruling on the new refrigerant so I would not be surprised that everybody is raising prices in "preparation" for the change.... hey, let's make an easy buck here...

My Dad had the presence of mind to buy a tank of R12 just before they outlawed it. He went to use it a couple years later and it was empty. It had a faulty valve and all that precious R12 had leaked out.

OMFG!!! That is really really BAD luck!.

[ecogabriel]

eco what you described as the r-134 conversion is practically what they typically do at any shop. they need to evacuate the r12 and collect it to have it disposed of b/c of the whole CFC's and ozone getting chewed up , the 134 is considered to be a "greener" alternative.

my father bought a case of r-12 cans and has been selling them over the years, that stuff last i looked was like $40 or $50 a can, he was telling me that the 134 went up to about $20 a can

I've converted my last two hatches to 134 without an issue at all, i had my gold hatch for 5 years, the A/c system worked like new out of the factory and still had the original A/C pump. We also converted our 91' aerostar to 134 years ago without a problem.

As a chemist i don't believe that the DEC PAG oil does not absorb water moisture, practically everything does to a certain degree, but it might be the case where the moisture adsorption /absorption is very low.

I found the Acura service bulletin for conversion to r-134a

http://daliracing.com/v666-5/downloa...134a95-008.pdf

As for DEC PAG , they say it not only resists R-12 residuals but also that its moisture absorption is minimal; the link I posted about someone mixing both PAGs with water tells something about it.

I woam uploading a later Honda service news with A/C info (forget about it: I cannot host pdf files...)