Refrigerant Woes

[DBMaster]

You guys are gonna LOVE this. NOT!

"Owners of 1994 and newer cars, this is the time to fix your air conditioner. Not just because warm summer days are coming (hurray!) and RockAuto has AC compressors, condensers, evaporators, and other AC parts that we are eager to sell. Fix your AC because you will soon officially be joining the owners of 1993 and older cars in having environmentally unfriendly and expensive refrigerant under your hoods.
In 1994, R-12 (branded as Freon) refrigerant was replaced with R-134a in new vehicle AC systems. R-12 had contributed to holes in the earth’s ozone layer. Production of new R-12 was banned in the United States and most other countries. The price of recycled R-12 skyrocketed. R-12 smuggling became as lucrative as drug smuggling. The last time I had an AC system charged, the R-12 cost $60 a pound.
Now R-134a is on the chopping block because it has a “global warming potential” (GWP) of 1400. Carbon dioxide is the baseline with a GWP of 1. This means R-134a is a greenhouse gas that contributes to global warming 1400 times as much as an equal amount of CO2.
Regulations now specify that refrigerants have a GWP of less than 150. New vehicles in Europe are required to have low GWP refrigerant starting this year. In the US, low GWP refrigerant will be phased in from 2013 to 2016 depending on the vehicle manufacturer.
The preferred new refrigerant is something called R-1234yf. It has a GWP of only 4. It requires special lubricating oils and handling equipment. It is also slightly flammable. AC fittings will be changed to help prevent the mixing of R-1234yf with R-134a.
This time around the production of the old refrigerant, R-134a, will not be banned. But R-134a will be federally taxed so its price is forced up from about $10 a pound to about $40 a pound, the expected price of R-1234yf. The tax is intended to further discourage people from attempting to use R-134a in one of the upcoming new cars designed to use R-1234yf.
This means refrigerant for the typical two pound R-134a AC charge will cost $80 instead of $20. That lost $60 might buy an AC O-ring set, an AC receiver drier or help pay for labor or other needed air conditioning parts. If your AC system needs work or frequent recharging, you will likely save some money by fixing it sooner rather than later."

[w261w261]

I recharged my car with R-12 when I bought it in 2001, put about a pound in it in 2005 and again in 2009. Original compressor. Isn't R-12 colder than the others?

[ghettogeddy]

I recharged my car with R-12 when I bought it in 2001, put about a pound in it in 2005 and again in 2009. Original compressor. Isn't R-12 colder than the others?

yes

[DBMaster]

I copied the text from Rock Auto's latest newsletter, by the way. I put in a new compressor last year and have Freeze 12 in the system. It's a mixed refrigerant that can operate with the same mineral oil and similar pressures to R12. Is it as cold? No. I have been measuring vent register temps and it's about three degrees warmer. I would call it "acceptable," though, I might yet use up my last three cans of R12 to redo it in the future. What was interesting to me is that you'll still be able to get R134a, but the price will be artificially inflated to match the price of the newer stuff. I guess you won't be topping off systems with $6 refrigerant anymore. I sure wish I didn't live somewhere where it's like a sauna for five months out of the year!

[Dr_Snooz]

That tears it. I'm going with propane. They never regulate hydrocarbons, so that's what I'm going with.

[DBMaster]

^^That is uncanny! Those were my thoughts exactly, Doc!

[Pnem3]

That tears it. I'm going with propane. They never regulate hydrocarbons, so that's what I'm going with.

^^That is uncanny! Those were my thoughts exactly, Doc!

Come on over. It's nice and cold here. I've been running propane and iso-butane in my 3G for at least 4 years now I think with no problems whatsoever.

My vents would literally freeze if I let them.

Like I always say, it is not for everyone but it works for me.

[Dr_Snooz]

You need to do a how-to. My brother is an engineer and gave me an earful about how propane is only half as efficient as R12. I kept telling him I'd heard it was equally as good, but he dropped the whole "I've done the math" deal on me. How do you argue with math?

[DBMaster]

Here you go. Not as cheap as DIY, but it's pre-blended...

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc-12a.html

[Oldblueaccord]

That tears it. I'm going with propane. They never regulate hydrocarbons, so that's what I'm going with.

Reading the EPA its illegal. That being said so are a lot of things.

I just removed my non-working seat belts and installed 4 point harnesses that are DOT approved. Technically illegal but to me a great safety improvement.


wp

[DBMaster]

If you read further you will notice that you can convert an R134a system legally to an HC refrigerant. Most of the commercially available ones look like various blends containing propane and butane. Somebody made the comment on an A/C web site that you could basically put R134a fittings on your car and say, "Yeah, it's been converted to R134a." Then, it's legal. Funny how government rules work sometimes, isn't it?

[DBMaster]

That tears it. I'm going with propane. They never regulate hydrocarbons, so that's what I'm going with.

Doc, I did some reading. It seems that the vapor pressure, or some other characteristic of propane causes it to freeze the evaporator unless you mix in something else, like butane.

[Pnem3]

You need to do a how-to. My brother is an engineer and gave me an earful about how propane is only half as efficient as R12. I kept telling him I'd heard it was equally as good, but he dropped the whole "I've done the math" deal on me. How do you argue with math?

His math is wrong. A propane / iso-butane blend is more efficient and you need less of it to do the job. You run lower pressures and actually save gasoline too

Doc, I did some reading. It seems that the vapor pressure, or some other characteristic of propane causes it to freeze the evaporator unless you mix in something else, like butane.

The iso-butane (the iso part is important) keeps the high side pressures lower than if using straight propane.

There are many how-to's on the web but I may do one for our cars.

I say again, this isn't for everyone and I spent hours and hours researching before I made my decision. I couldn't be happier.

[Dr_Snooz]

Reading the EPA its illegal. That being said so are a lot of things.

I just removed my non-working seat belts and installed 4 point harnesses that are DOT approved. Technically illegal but to me a great safety improvement.


wp

I hear you Walt. I'm all for staying within the limits of the law. I've counseled quite a few people on this board to convert to 134. Yet when the law mandates that you go to all the trouble and expense of converting to 134 because R12 is so bad, then you have a right to a reasonable expectation that the ground isn't going to shift under your feet again later on. Some of the early adopters spent thousands of dollars switching their cars over to 134. The rest of us did without AC altogether for ten years or so until we figured out how to do it cheaply. They should not come back a few years later and say "Just kidding, 134 is the really bad stuff now. Just redo everything you did a few years ago." That's the kind of thing that makes people ignore the law. One new Super Duty pickup is going to spit out more greenhouse emissions than all the cans of 134 I will ever buy. So why would I bother? In my case, I see that Exxon and BP can smear hydrocarbons all over everything without suffering any real consequences, so I know that if I convert to hydrocarbons, they won't come back later and pull them off the market.

[Dr_Snooz]

Apparently, it's illegal to convert from R12 to propane, but not from R134 to propane. LOL You don't even need a vacuum pump to create a vacuum before filling. You don't need to convert any oils. Just fill it. If you have an R12 system, you don't even need gauges to fill it, just use a tire gauge. Propane is more efficient than regular refrigerants. Head pressure is lower too.

Unbelievable.

[mcs32jr1968]

Come on over. It's nice and cold here. I've been running propane and iso-butane in my 3G for at least 4 years now I think with no problems whatsoever.

My vents would literally freeze if I let them.

Like I always say, it is not for everyone but it works for me.

that's cool...(excuse the pun). any DIY or instructions for clowns like me who would like to attempt a propane/iso butane recharge instead of R12???

ps..is it dangerous (flammable??explosive??)to have propane/iso butane instead of the old R12 refrigerant??

peace,

mcs

[Xaisk]

I always heard that propane was safe so long as you dont get a leak or get in a wreck. I knew a guy who knew somebody who did a propane conversion and got into a wreck. He would have survived but the AC lines were severed, allowing the propane to escape and come in contact with the fire. I dont think it caused an explosion but im sure the flames blazed...

[Pnem3]

Everybody knows a guy who knows a guy who had something happen to him. Funny thing is no one ever hears from that guy directly. I spent hours and hours doing research on the net and I suggest that anyone who even considers converting to hydrocarbon refrigerants does the same. For me, in the end, I found that the dangers were greatly exaggerated. I also found that there is no easier or efficient or cheaper way to convert our vehicles.

[Dr_Snooz]

He would have survived

Funny thing is no one ever hears from that guy directly.

Um, maybe because he's dead?

Seriously though, propane IS flammable. But so is 134. Propane auto-ignites at a HIGHER temperature than does R134. Remember too that in most modern fuel-injected cars, you are surrounded by a lot more gasoline under high pressure than you would have propane in the average AC system. Given the right circumstances, you could get the propane in an AC system to ignite, but I don't think there would be enough there to cause much of an explosion, especially if there were a rupture that allowed the propane to disperse into the air before igniting.

The only thing that gives me pause about propane is that you are basically on your own in maintaining it. Once you use propane, from what I've read, you can't take the car into a shop and have a service done. Nor can you go back to a conventional refrigerant and have a shop work on it. The propane contaminates the system and no shop will be able to use its machines to do any kind of service or recovery. It would damage their machines and they would have to replace them. If you wanted a shop to service the car again, you'd have to replace all the components in the system first. I do all my own work, so that's not a problem for me, but it's something for people to consider before making the switch.

[DBMaster]

If you are a fan of "Mythbusters" you can make some deductions and realize that the chances of having an explosion due to a little propane in your A/C system are about as close to zero as you can get. When I was a kid people used to say that if you played around with WD-40 and used the can as a torch the fire would "back up into the can" and blow it up in your hand. Pardon my French, but bull-crap. Even if you had a total car fire one of the rubber hoses would weaken first and then let the refrigerant out in a stream. Again, no explosion. If you don't want to try propane, that's fine. I just don't understand why everyone has to rationalize their decisions with fear-based propaganda. I won't do it because I have actually had shops replace my A/C system and I want to be able to get it done in the future if I still have the car.

I think I truly mean it this time when I say I give up. There are too many people who are just too convinced that their misinformation is gospel truth.

Whenever I see an A/C post I cringe because it starts one of these discussions all over again and like Al Pacino, "they pull me back in."

[DBMaster]

Practicality figures into the equation, too. I have enough R12 on my shelf to fill the system - once. That would not leave me enough to add the half-can per year that the car has lost since it was new. This continued even after putting in a new compressor in 1999 along with new hoses, o-rings, drier, and schrader valves. I let Danny's Import Services put in Freeze 12 last August when I replaced the compressor again, which is what they retrofit to all R12 systems. I did it because at least for the near future I can get more and the shop can service it if I don't want to. Funny thing is that the system doesn't seem to have lost any of this stuff. I always thought R134a (Freeze 12 is mostly R134a) would leak MORE readily than R12. Who knows. Maybe my old compressor had a leaky shaft seal. The new one is like the one from 1999, a brand-new Denso unit.

[Oldblueaccord]

If you have a Biglots near you they have a sale for 8$ a can 134a this week.


wp

[Dr_Snooz]

I just picked up a couple cans for my mom's car. A can now runs $18.99. Plus, you need an adapter to connect your existing gauges to the new cans. PLUS, you have to pay a $10 core charge for each can. Out the door cost for two cans: $66. Yikes.

Propane keeps looking better. Incidentally, it is a recognized refrigerant referred to by the code R290.

[Pnem3]

A core charge? How can that be? Are they going to refill the cans? It's probably to keep people from hoarding them because the core charge can't be redeemed far into the future. What a ripoff.

[YK86]

Since we are on this topic, I converted my 90 Accord to R134a using those $40 Walmart conversion kits that everyone seems to bash. Since it was for my own car and had nothing to lose, I changed all the o-rings and drier for about $30, but filled it with the r134a without get the system vacuumed "properly". It's been over 5 years now and I have not had to fill it once and it still blows nice and cold even on the odd days it hits 100F here in Vancouver. It may not be as cold as r12 but I'm actually really happy with it, especially since it was less then $80 after tax to do it.

Now just recently, it's been warming up here and I ended up doing the same thing on the SEi for the hell of it (it's already been retrofitted but the I think the o-rings were bad and had no pressure).I didn't have time to go into the US to get more of the "usual" Interdynamics r134a so after reading up on a few AC related sites, I felt comfortable enough to grab a few cans of $10 12A (the HC based stuff that's compatible with r12 and r134a) from the local parts store plus the o-rings and drier ran about $50. I actually find the 12A blows cooler than the r134a in the 4th gen just like the tech guys on the AC said.

Anyone else find this as well?? I'm in Canada so I don't know what prices the Interdynamics r134a is recently in the US (it was $8.99 for r134a and $12.99 for Arctic Freeze last fall) but I think I'll be using 12a from now on.