E85 or regular pump gas on my accord

[DOPEY]

Ok so im putting a built b20v in my accord but debating on what gas to use. Any suggestions

[DBMaster]

Not sure what the others will say, but I would say no E85. Vehicles built for it ("Flex Fuel") are different from their standard gasoline burning counterparts. They generally have plastic fuel tanks and often different materials in the fuel system that avoid the use of steel parts. Check it out yourself in a Google search.

[cygnus x-1]

If boosted then E85 is ok as long as you tune for it and make sure the fuel system can hold up to it. If NA then stick with regular pump gas (E0 - E10). UNLESS you have NA with ridiculous high compression, like 12:1 or more, then you could try E85.


C|

[DOPEY]

I have 11.5 but with the milled head it should almost b 13.0-1. So I cant just pump E85 into a metal gas tank

[cygnus x-1]

I have 11.5 but with the milled head it should almost b 13.0-1. So I cant just pump E85 into a metal gas tank

Depends on whether the tank is coated on the inside or not. Newer tanks are but I think the Accord ones are not. You could have the inside coated and it would be ok. It's not so much the ethanol that's the problem but the water that inevitably gets into the fuel due to it be hygroscopic. Bare steel and aluminum will eventually corrode with higher levels of ethanol, so plastic is preferred. Anodized aluminum is ok as is I believe stainless steel.


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[MessyHonda]

first install the engine then we can see what gas it will run on.

[DOPEY]

Too much work ill just put it on race gas 111 octane I already got the injectors from rc

[Oldblueaccord]

I'd look and see if its available in your area. It is several dollars cheaper per gallon to race gas.

Due to running higher volume of fuel you may need to upgrade your fuel lines and fuel pump. Plan on 30% more than gasoline.

[gtpilot]

I have run E85 year round for years without changing anything from the factory fuel line materials and I have had no problems - D16A1 (Integra motor) in an 87 CRX...larger injectors were needed so they were not running 100% duty cycle and retuning the ECU as well. This is an 11.5:1 CR motor with a ported head, lumpy cams, ZC intake with a bore TB and a long tube SS header. I am almost maxed out on 390cc injectors @ 5,500 ft in elevation! It runs like a scalded ape and still gets 33 MPG in combined driving. If I had an Accord 5th gear (4,000 RPM @ 80 MPH is not good for highway mileage...) then I am sure my MPG would go up.

Kirk

[89T]

Not bad for you'r first post! Like I said 90% of what you read is myth.. This guy is in the 10%.

[2oodoor]

agreed, any of these will be trail by error...
Im thinking as long as the fuel remains stabil and doens't get a chance to sit too long it should not have the water separation issues that along with the corrosive properties of corn fuel cause the feared consequences.
your're going to have rust all in the filler neck regardless, so changing that should help too.
Rust (corrosion) is like weeds, all it takes is a spore to seed up a rust investation.

My personal preference with a Hi comp would be race gas or airplane gas blended with regular E free pump gas, as long as it were available. You would have to plan on running it hard all the time because as a DD that would just be nuts.
Dash controled timing maps / injector dwell would be a plus for that. Like a USDM type tuner (Jet, Edge, Diablor etc.) if that were feesable.

This is a discussion that we will likely see more of since alternative fuel is the way all our vintage perfomance appitites will need to be queched with.

[gtpilot]

I am working on a flex fuel sensor that will measure the actual alcohol content in the tank - E85 varies depending on the season (E70 or so in the winter due to the lower vapor pressure of alcohol making for hard starts) and I will feed the sensor signal into the ELD input on a PM6 ECU. The voltage input will be used to alter the fuel map by % of alcohol in the tank...so I can run anything from standard pump gas to E100 or any blend in between and the ECU will trim the fuel delivery.

Methanol is the corrosive $hi!...Ethanol is not corrosive, it just has the ability to absorb water that will corrode stuff in the fuel system...just like our year round gas here in CO - it is E10. They denature the Ethanol with gas so you can't drink it - think about it, if you mix grain alcohol with water they blend together, they don't separate.

My buddy, -TJ, has been running E85 in his JRSC D16A1 for years as well without issues.

Kirk

[2drSE-i]

Not bad for you'r first post! Like I said 90% of what you read is myth.. This guy is in the 10%.

and 89% of all statistics are made up

I've been contemplating E85 for a while now, but its really hard to find in my part of the country.

[2oodoor]

here's 89% just for argument sake... Ethanol itself may not be corrosive on it's own, it is the elements that bond with water H20 that have the potential to start a problem.
So say you contaminate five gallons of E85 or even E15 with some percentage rain water, then you pour it in the uncoated steel tank thru the already rusted filler tube most of us have on our 80's Hondas.
You have the properties in the rain water (spent jet fuel, bird waste, just use your imagination lol) and then the rust the compound will pick up in the tube and hey... could be an issue, especially if you let that fuel sit in the tank a while.
Small engines in landscaping equipment and marine vehicles like boats, wave runners, are all having carb and fuel system issues from using the E blends.

Brake fluid mixes with water too, and when it picks up the H20 it causes rust issues from the steel lines and hydralic servers. You will find that rust paste crap along seals as well as rust pitting in the lowest points of the system such as the bottom of the caliper cylinder area, and wheel cylinders.

[gtpilot]

and 89% of all statistics are made up

I've been contemplating E85 for a while now, but its really hard to find in my part of the country.

http://www.e85fuel.com/find-an-e85-station/ - I am lucky, the nearest station is less than a block away.

Kirk

[DOPEY]

Damn seing all this post makes me wanna go on e85 n they just opened up 2 gas stations that carry it but im alrwady tuned on gas idk I have to think about it but mostlikely I am

[gtpilot]

here's 89% just for argument sake... Ethanol itself may not be corrosive on it's own, it is the elements that bond with water H20 that have the potential to start a problem.
So say you contaminate five gallons of E85 or even E15 with some percentage rain water, then you pour it in the uncoated steel tank thru the already rusted filler tube most of us have on our 80's Hondas.
You have the properties in the rain water (spent jet fuel, bird waste, just use your imagination lol) and then the rust the compound will pick up in the tube and hey... could be an issue, especially if you let that fuel sit in the tank a while.
Small engines in landscaping equipment and marine vehicles like boats, wave runners, are all having carb and fuel system issues from using the E blends.

Brake fluid mixes with water too, and when it picks up the H20 it causes rust issues from the steel lines and hydralic servers. You will find that rust paste crap along seals as well as rust pitting in the lowest points of the system such as the bottom of the caliper cylinder area, and wheel cylinders.

Hmmm...never thought about mixing rain water with my fuel for my car - either gas or Ethanol...I always try to keep them separate?

Water in gas - generally your engine dies because it sits at the bottom of the tank and gets pumped all by itself into the fuel system and that is the major cause of the sediment/rust...it sits directly on the surface of the tank. Water in Ethanol gets absorbed and it gets burned up in the ignition process...ever heard of water injection to prevent detonation in highly boosted engines?

While I still agree with your statements about water/gas/brake fluid/ethanol mixing or not, I do not agree with your assertions that Ethanol is worse for your car. Have you ever changed the oil in a car that only burns Ethanol? It comes out one hell of a lot cleaner than when you burn dinosaur drippings. Any car post 85 was made to have E10 (and God forbid, MTBE) run through it so it has the proper materials in the fuel system already.

Kirk

[Ichiban]

Hmmm...never thought about mixing rain water with my fuel for my car - either gas or Ethanol...I always try to keep them separate?

Well, that's generally not the case. I think the biggest culprit in this scenario is in fact condensation. A partially empty fuel tank has a large volume of air/fuel vapor to expand and contract. When the tank cools off at night, moist air is drawn inside, and condensation occurs on the exposed inside surface of the tank. Then I imagine the water beads and rolls to the bottom of the tank, where it collects and can't evaporate due to the gasoline sitting on top of it. The next day, the tank warms, expels air and vapor, and the next night, same deal. You're not even using the vehicle, but you're gathering water. I would guess partially empty fuel station tanks do the same thing. I was taught as a heavy equipment operator to always fully fuel machines at the end of the day to reduce the vapor producing volume available inside the fuel tank.

Water in gas - generally your engine dies because it sits at the bottom of the tank and gets pumped all by itself into the fuel system and that is the major cause of the sediment/rust...it sits directly on the surface of the tank. Water in Ethanol gets absorbed and it gets burned up in the ignition process...ever heard of water injection to prevent detonation in highly boosted engines?

I agree. However having the water now soluble in the fuel rather than it being isolated by an oil product (water is relatively insoluble in gasoline) that water is now free to corrode the entire fuel system that it is in contact with, not just the low points where it settles. Besides, what is gas line antifreeze and how does it work? Hint, it actually allows the water in the fuel to be absorbed and burnt in the engine...

While I still agree with your statements about water/gas/brake fluid/ethanol mixing or not, I do not agree with your assertions that Ethanol is worse for your car. Have you ever changed the oil in a car that only burns Ethanol? It comes out one hell of a lot cleaner than when you burn dinosaur drippings. Any car post 85 was made to have E10 (and God forbid, MTBE) run through it so it has the proper materials in the fuel system already.

People seem to have a conception that ethanol itself is corrosive or somehow otherwise harmful to materials. We all know that it's actually the water that's the problem, which gets burnt off during combustion. Proper thermostat function ensures water doesn't accumulate in the crankcase. Ever look at oil from an engine running propane or CNG? Stays pretty clean too.

Hell, gasoline is a pretty vile and chemically reactive substance, but people can drink ethanol, how bad can it really be?

[89T]

and 89% of all statistics are made up

I've been contemplating E85 for a while now, but its really hard to find in my part of the country.

Explain you'r self, 89% a dig at me? What is the percentage of people on the site that actually do somthing instead of contemplating it. If you guy's want to argue who's right go ahead. I'll enjoy my e85! Why, I have already done it.

Intank 255lph walbro + bosch 044 inline. Id 1000's with -8an (7/16) fuel feed line and going 100psi base fuel pressure. I have more in my fuel system than most have in their entire car.

[2drSE-i]

Explain you'r self, 89% a dig at me? What is the percentage of people on the site that actually do somthing instead of contemplating it. If you guy's want to argue who's right go ahead. I'll enjoy my e85! Why, I have already done it.

Intank 255lph walbro + bosch 044 inline. Id 1000's with -8an (7/16) fuel feed line and going 100psi base fuel pressure. I have more in my fuel system than most have in their entire car.

Nope, no digs here. Just thought up (again, many statistics are) a rather high percentage. As for the second statement, probably 98%. I have no argumements, don't see the point. I've argued with people over the sheer facts of ethanol (as I'm sure you have, and will continue to) and shadetree mechanics are always "right".

[89T]

Nope, no digs here. Just thought up (again, many statistics are) a rather high percentage. As for the second statement, probably 98%. I have no argumements, don't see the point. I've argued with people over the sheer facts of ethanol (as I'm sure you have, and will continue to) and shadetree mechanics are always "right".

I never claimed to be right, and shadetree i am not, and most "real" mechanics have no clue.. I claim that i have done it and have seen and known atleast 20 people/cars that have atleast 5 years running it on stock hardware, and without any problems.

[2drSE-i]

I never claimed to be right, and shadetree i am not, and most "real" mechanics have no clue.. I claim that i have done it and have seen and known atleast 20 people/cars that have atleast 5 years running it on stock hardware, and without any problems.

Again you've got me all wrong. I'm agreeing with you, I too know a couple of people running E85 (even though they have to drive about half an hour to get it) on stock components (with a few exceptions).

I just think its funny that even with cold hard facts, you bring up ethanol and people say "oh it will ruin your car, corn will grow out of your tailpipe and sugar will clog your butthole."

[89T]

My falt sir, It seems that I took what you were saying the wrong way.

Must have been the corn i drank last night. lol

[2drSE-i]

no worries, you lose all tone in text, I can see how you thought I was slighting you

[Accordtheory]

Well, that's generally not the case. I think the biggest culprit in this scenario is in fact condensation. A partially empty fuel tank has a large volume of air/fuel vapor to expand and contract. When the tank cools off at night, moist air is drawn inside, and condensation occurs on the exposed inside surface of the tank. Then I imagine the water beads and rolls to the bottom of the tank, where it collects and can't evaporate due to the gasoline sitting on top of it. The next day, the tank warms, expels air and vapor, and the next night, same deal. You're not even using the vehicle, but you're gathering water. I would guess partially empty fuel station tanks do the same thing. I was taught as a heavy equipment operator to always fully fuel machines at the end of the day to reduce the vapor producing volume available inside the fuel tank.

Your gas cap doesn't hiss when you take it off? Mine sure does. The fuel system is supposed to be a closed system. Newer cars will turn on the check engine light if you leave the gas cap loose, or there is a leak in any part of the fuel system. I don't know how they check this, but they do.

You can look up how that works if you want pretty easily. I did a while ago, because I was trying to diagnose an evap code for someone, but I can't remember how that all works.

I know I can let my accord sit for multiple years, I never drive it anymore, and it still starts with just the bump of the key. No way would it be able to do that if the tank were as open to the environment as you're suggesting. Not to mention, the smell of gas would be pretty strong around the car if that were the case too.

Older cars, from the pre emissions era of 60s and early 70s, their fuel systems were not airtight. I had a 1972 240z that was given to me, and that gas tank was filled with tar. Literal tar. I had to fill the tank with acetone and rocks, and shake the hell out of it for hours to get tthat nasty black clumpy shit to come out. I still wasn't able to get it all out, the fuel lines clogged again shortly afterwards.