A20 Engine Build Research for Rhonda And Shelly

[gfrg88]

Function over form... It works. It's easy.. But honestly not as clean as the adapter plate... That's just me though.. Not bashing your work Jerry.. I know you're better than that!!!

[cygnus x-1]

The dizzy is sold but it's a f22 of course just some grinding an drilling an wala. Bolts right up .

https://www.3geez.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=680

Function over form... It works. It's easy.. But honestly not as clean as the adapter plate... That's just me though.. Not bashing your work Jerry.. I know you're better than that!!!

The adapter plate is cleaner, but it's also expensive. Modifying the distributor is a more direct solution and would be much cheaper. I think I may have to look into this.


Sorry for the threadjack.

C|

[stat1K]

i would rather get an adapter plate based on having to adapt any new distributor you might buy.

[Rendon LX-i]

o i agree. But it looks cleaner on the other side LOL i just showed you the back side which you wont see. I agree on the adapter plate looking much cleaner. BUt for a budget guy like myself couldnt afford it. If you look at jerrys pics youll see it looks clean. Jerry is the man and i give jerry props hands down to him for doing such awesome work.

https://www.3geez.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=216. MUCH MUCH cleaner when its bolted up. looks like oem. TO ME it looks better cause it look like it belongs there. DOwn fall if it ever fails you cant return it or warrenty it. BUt looks awesome and works.

[89T]

regardless, I am not doing anymore. I will clean up 3gr#2. free of charge. Ship it to me and i'll ship it back.

[lostforawhile]

I was looking for at least 140hp or 150hp all motor which i doubt i wont reach it that much but would like to try to get close enough. i know some of guys here have done alot of work and maybe thought you guys can throw some ideas. for sure ill be getting a Level 2 cam or the ones that get alot of good feedback. I hope i can get some really good info. Thanks for any Info!

I'll be watching this thread, I'm going for the same numbers, the Datsun 2000 roadster ran the same SUs I run and the same manifold, it was getting around 130 in stock form, the engines are very close as far as specs, I'm going to guess an engine made in 1986 is probably going to flow better then one made in 1967, both are single overhead cam with similar stroke and bore, both almost the same displacement, the 2000 engine had a slightly bigger bore but a shorter stroke, these a20 engines are really a stroker design, you can tell by looking at the torque all being available low in the power band, they don't have a high redline, but torque is what gets you moving, with a stage one cam,to retain the torque curve, the much better flowing manifold and big dual carbs, 4-1 full length header, ignition, etc, I think I will be able to hit 150, these cars are kind of heavy,so it's best to retain the torque

[ShyBoyCA6]

I'll be watching this thread, I'm going for the same numbers, the Datsun 2000 roadster ran the same SUs I run and the same manifold, it was getting around 130 in stock form, the engines are very close as far as specs, I'm going to guess an engine made in 1986 is probably going to flow better then one made in 1967, both are single overhead cam with similar stroke and bore, both almost the same displacement, the 2000 engine had a slightly bigger bore but a shorter stroke, these a20 engines are really a stroker design, you can tell by looking at the torque all being available low in the power band, they don't have a high redline, but torque is what gets you moving, with a stage one cam,to retain the torque curve, the much better flowing manifold and big dual carbs, 4-1 full length header, ignition, etc, I think I will be able to hit 150, these cars are kind of heavy,so it's best to retain the torque

expect some upgrades pretty soon! having a friend come help me remove both engines and get this show on the road! I will post pictures as i go more into building the spare head i got. Gonna have to buy another block in the mean time or if not use the same one. Stay tuned. 150-160hp here i come

[A18A]

i thought you where gonna put in a b-series?

[ShyBoyCA6]

i thought you where gonna put in a b-series?

I have 2 coupes so one will be getting the b series. i already have the B series mounts, just waiting for more money to come in to complete it.

[A18A]

ahh i see now

[obdriver6]

A built A20 and a B swap! I'm jelly!

[Tdurr]

Im jelly too!

[ShyBoyCA6]

Yup can't wait. I found a Cable tranny for 100$ i would pick it up but he says that its grinding 3rd gear he is not sure.what do you guys think? Yay or nay? I could rebuild it with fresh parts. Or should i go with the Ys1 with no problems for 250?

[hondalude86]

YS1 no problems for 250...

[obdriver6]

Ys1!

[ShyBoyCA6]

Ok so i called the shop my uncle recommended me to and got this qoute:

1. Rebuilt Head with valves no seals (i would have to get the valve seals for the valves) for $150.

2.Block work: .20 over for $80 (i think he said Decked to0)

3. Japan Pistons with rings: $120

4.Crankshaft: New Crank shaft/w bearings for $110(i have a spare overheated block that i could rebuild fresh if i want.)

im guessing the rebuilt block would be like $500 or $600. im not trying to be cheap but im a budget. well only for the head package cause i don't have enough for the lvl 2. Bisimoto cam, Skunk2 B16 Intake Mani and bisimoto valve springs. i still need to buy a clutch, resurface flywheel, new rotors and brake pads.

Ill be sending the head in for work in a couple weeks like in March 9th for a stock build to get some progress going. Also i got a estimate for 83mm 9.6:1 or 9.5 Compression pistons for the same price. so i will probably order those and get the block done and ready. just one question: would it affect the way the motor runs if i go 83mm with a stock head? or would the head need work as well? i think our pistons are 82.74 or .72... not sure but will look into it.

i could run my motor bored over.20 for now without having to worry about the engine. then i could focus all my attention on the spare motor and work from there. i just wanna get the car working in tip top shape for the accord meet. I haven't slept in 22 hrs cause i been looking for shops and making phone calls. excuse me if this doesn't make sense. being busy like a mofo this month and wanna get a lot done. Stay tuned.

BTW the Ys1 trans is in riverside lol so i will need to borrow a car or someone take me to pick it up...ill let you know what happens with that soon.

[gfrg88]

budget, eh? Get an A18 block. Stock GSR pistons and rods. done.

[cygnus x-1]

Ok so i called the shop my uncle recommended me to and got this qoute:

1. Rebuilt Head with valves no seals (i would have to get the valve seals for the valves) for $150.

The head is where you should put most of your effort if you're looking for power gains. At the least, make sure they are doing a 3-angle cut on the valve seats, and see if they can back cut the intake valves. You can also tell them you want a more of a performance type valve grind with narrower seats. The stock spec is 1.25mm-1.5mm but you can go down to 1.0mm. Narrower seats will mean that the head will have to be rebuilt again sooner, but the stock heads last for 250k miles easily, so if you only get 100k, not a big deal.

$150 seems pretty cheap honestly, so I would ask and make sure they aren't just doing a simple touch up on the seats and not doing a full 3-angle cut.

Back cutting the valve will add a little to the cost but it's worth doing it now while you have the head off for service.

Something else you could do to bump up the compression is to have the head surface milled down. Every 1mm you take off would bump up the compression by about 0.8 points. If the head has never been milled before you could potentially take off as much as 2mm, but that's a bit extreme. Up to 1mm is safe and would get you about 10:1 compression. If you do this you should consider getting an adjustable cam gear to compensate for the change in head height. Milling the head shortens the distance from the cam gear to the crank gear, thereby retarding the cam timing a bit. I don't remember the number exactly but it's something like 2 degrees per 1mm off the head. Not a huge deal but it will shift the engines powerband up a tad towards higher RPMs.

2.Block work: .20 over for $80 (i think he said Decked to0)

3. Japan Pistons with rings: $120

The best (cheap) pistons to use are from either NPR or ITM. NPR makes factory pistons for Honda (supposedly) so they should have the correct dish on the top. There's a guy over on Preludepower that used some from ITM that also look pretty good and have the correct dish as well. The ones you want from ITM are part# RY6396-20 (-20 is for 0.020" over). There is another part# RY6395-xx that has the larger dish (for the lower compression 86-87 engines) but you don't want those.

4.Crankshaft: New Crank shaft/w bearings for $110(i have a spare overheated block that i could rebuild fresh if i want.)

Try and use the stock crank if at all possible. If the journals are scuffed up they might be able to polish them out. As long as they aren't pitted and are still within spec they should be ok.

im guessing the rebuilt block would be like $500 or $600. im not trying to be cheap but im a budget. well only for the head package cause i don't have enough for the lvl 2. Bisimoto cam, Skunk2 B16 Intake Mani and bisimoto valve springs. i still need to buy a clutch, resurface flywheel, new rotors and brake pads.

Unless you plan to rev beyond the factory redline I wouldn't bother with the Bisi springs. The stock springs are pretty good. Things like the cam/intake/exhaust you can always do later when you have more money.

It might be worth asking the shop if they can lighten the flywheel too. When I did my rebuild they were able to cut off the extra outer flange on the flywheel to lighten it up. Just make sure they transfer the timing marks over before they cut it. When they did mine they cut the timing marks off and I had to paint them on again using another flywheel for reference.

Ill be sending the head in for work in a couple weeks like in March 9th for a stock build to get some progress going. Also i got a estimate for 83mm 9.6:1 or 9.5 Compression pistons for the same price. so i will probably order those and get the block done and ready. just one question: would it affect the way the motor runs if i go 83mm with a stock head? or would the head need work as well? i think our pistons are 82.74 or .72... not sure but will look into it.

If the block needs to be bored to 0.020" over, 83mm will be too small. 0.020" is equivalent to 0.5mm, making the pistons 83.2mm. I'm curious about what pistons they are talking about for the higher compression ratio. There aren't any direct replacement pistons (for the A20) that I know about that will raise the compression beyond stock. There are some from other engines that are more or less compatible (83mm B-series, Nissan CA18DET) but I would be surprised if they suggested something like that.

Theoretically over-boring does raise the compression, but it's so small that you won't even notice. We're talking like 1% at best.

i could run my motor bored over.20 for now without having to worry about the engine. then i could focus all my attention on the spare motor and work from there.

With the NPR/ITM pistons the block should be able to handle just about anything you could do to the rest of the engine, short of adding a big turbo (high boost) or a really insane high compression NA head. So I think you'll be good.

C|

[ShyBoyCA6]

budget, eh? Get an A18 block. Stock GSR pistons and rods. done.

Hmm that would be nice but i think the carbs engines here are 2.0...but the A18A Block can be found in a 2nd gen prelude if it was carb that is. Any other ideas? Money range is from 900-1100 maybe less if i assemble everything and do the labor myself with a friend.

The head is where you should put most of your effort if you're looking for power gains. At the least, make sure they are doing a 3-angle cut on the valve seats, and see if they can back cut the intake valves. You can also tell them you want a more of a performance type valve grind with narrower seats. The stock spec is 1.25mm-1.5mm but you can go down to 1.0mm. Narrower seats will mean that the head will have to be rebuilt again sooner, but the stock heads last for 250k miles easily, so if you only get 100k, not a big deal.

$150 seems pretty cheap honestly, so I would ask and make sure they aren't just doing a simple touch up on the seats and not doing a full 3-angle cut.

Back cutting the valve will add a little to the cost but it's worth doing it now while you have the head off for service.

Something else you could do to bump up the compression is to have the head surface milled down. Every 1mm you take off would bump up the compression by about 0.8 points. If the head has never been milled before you could potentially take off as much as 2mm, but that's a bit extreme. Up to 1mm is safe and would get you about 10:1 compression. If you do this you should consider getting an adjustable cam gear to compensate for the change in head height. Milling the head shortens the distance from the cam gear to the crank gear, thereby retarding the cam timing a bit. I don't remember the number exactly but it's something like 2 degrees per 1mm off the head. Not a huge deal but it will shift the engines powerband up a tad towards higher RPMs.




The best (cheap) pistons to use are from either NPR or ITM. NPR makes factory pistons for Honda (supposedly) so they should have the correct dish on the top. There's a guy over on Preludepower that used some from ITM that also look pretty good and have the correct dish as well. The ones you want from ITM are part# RY6396-20 (-20 is for 0.020" over). There is another part# RY6395-xx that has the larger dish (for the lower compression 86-87 engines) but you don't want those.





Try and use the stock crank if at all possible. If the journals are scuffed up they might be able to polish them out. As long as they aren't pitted and are still within spec they should be ok.




Unless you plan to rev beyond the factory redline I wouldn't bother with the Bisi springs. The stock springs are pretty good. Things like the cam/intake/exhaust you can always do later when you have more money.

It might be worth asking the shop if they can lighten the flywheel too. When I did my rebuild they were able to cut off the extra outer flange on the flywheel to lighten it up. Just make sure they transfer the timing marks over before they cut it. When they did mine they cut the timing marks off and I had to paint them on again using another flywheel for reference.





If the block needs to be bored to 0.020" over, 83mm will be too small. 0.020" is equivalent to 0.5mm, making the pistons 83.2mm. I'm curious about what pistons they are talking about for the higher compression ratio. There aren't any direct replacement pistons (for the A20) that I know about that will raise the compression beyond stock. There are some from other engines that are more or less compatible (83mm B-series, Nissan CA18DET) but I would be surprised if they suggested something like that.

Theoretically over-boring does raise the compression, but it's so small that you won't even notice. We're talking like 1% at best.





With the NPR/ITM pistons the block should be able to handle just about anything you could do to the rest of the engine, short of adding a big turbo (high boost) or a really insane high compression NA head. So I think you'll be good.

C|

Damn 1%.... :/ hmm ill look into those pistons you listed. The pistons i was talking about are from Jigs or Jegs one of the 2. they said they could make me custom pistons. a set of 4 with rings for that price but the pistons from the shop were just stock. ill post a video of the engine's current condition and also drive around from gear to gear so you can hear how bad it sounds. I wanna see if the block is fixable, if not then ill just take whats needed for the 5spd and swap over to the AT Block. In time i would like to rev it up higher than stock maybe 7500rpm or more if i can.

How much weight did you take off your flywheel? if im not mistaken, i think the flywheel weighs 22lbs. I talked to Customer service at clutchnet.com and asked how much a 10lbs?(not sure on weight)aluminum flywheel was and quoted 495.00. They don't have it in stock so i asked if they could make one and said YES just gotta place an order. i think 10 might be to light i would ask for a 12lbs. <---for people that were looking for a flywheels ask them.

For the head cam gear. i have the GE Adjustable gear so i think im in the clear if i go down that route.

Also the Motor mounts should be here on Friday i would need to get the driver side one but not sure where to get it. i dont wanna get the lean like most have had

[cygnus x-1]

Any other ideas? Money range is from 900-1100 maybe less if i assemble everything and do the labor myself with a friend.

Assembling yourself will save a lot of money. Just make sure you get a helper that has assembled engines before. It will go a lot faster that way.

Damn 1%.... :/ hmm ill look into those pistons you listed. The pistons i was talking about are from Jigs or Jegs one of the 2. they said they could make me custom pistons. a set of 4 with rings for that price but the pistons from the shop were just stock.

A set of 4 custom pistons for $130? Not likely. Custom forged pistons generally run about $500-$600 for a set of 4, but could be made with any comp ratio you want. The shop would probably be looking at the ITMs or NPR, or possibly another aftermarket brand. The good OEM Honda pistons I think are no longer available.

How much weight did you take off your flywheel? if im not mistaken, i think the flywheel weighs 22lbs. I talked to Customer service at clutchnet.com and asked how much a 10lbs?(not sure on weight)aluminum flywheel was and quoted 495.00. They don't have it in stock so i asked if they could make one and said YES just gotta place an order. i think 10 might be to light i would ask for a 12lbs.

You know, I never actually weighed it so I don't know. If I had to guess I would say it was maybe 2-3 lbs lighter. 10lbs total weight might be a handful to drive. Getting 1st gear engaged off the line line will be trickier. $500 is a lot too.

For the head cam gear. i have the GE Adjustable gear so i think im in the clear if i go down that route.

Also the Motor mounts should be here on Friday i would need to get the driver side one but not sure where to get it. i dont wanna get the lean like most have had

Cool. The lean comes from using the wrong front mount. The side mount has nothing to do with it. Maybe try Rockauto for the side mount? Don't forget the 5% 3geez discount code from them.


C|

[ShyBoyCA6]

Ill be tearing down the block later today with pictures. Been lazy to get to work on this thing -___-. also i got some Bushings for the control Arm (Polyurethane) for both cars. and i'll get some pics of those as well. Please note that the black coupe(Shelly) will not get the A series build anymore for those of you reading this thread. So expect some new things in this thread for the next 2 months.

[ShyBoyCA6]

Oil Base filter



I didn't have a lift and was heavy to lift so i dragged it on the oil pan which i didn't care for anyway. I found Sluged stuff inside the oil pan but on everything else was clean cause i put fresh oil to keep the parts oiled clean.


Off with the oil pan




Took off the oil screening and windage tray if thats what its called.


I also took off the pistons and water and boy i was not happy when i saw the inside of it >:/

Ill post more pictures as im wrenching and taking pics it will slow me down. the only thing that i see that suffered was the mains and the rod bearings everything else look ok.

I got a couple questions though:
1.How do i take off the flexplate bolts and crank pulley? Do i need air tool for this to come off?

2. Kinda curious if i should put b series pistons im stuck in between this decision -___- i mean i do kinda want a good compression. ive seen some B18 Pistions 83mm from CP with 9.8:1 ratio which is something thats ok maybe give me some good numbers to reach 160hp? I got 2 months to complete or more if i need to. well what would i need to use them and is it to much work?

[A18A]

chuck a bolt through one of the holes in the flex plate, then when you loosen them, the bolt will catch on something and the crank wont turn, allowing the bolts to come loose

[rjudgey]

JIS can get you set of nice oversize pistons in the 9.4:1 CR ratio they are amazingly cheap too with rings and pins. They look to be the same as Honda ones most likely from same foundry in Japan.

Block seems to be in good condition although haven't seen the pics of the coolant passages this sounds like there maybe an issue there.

As for headwork be very suspicous of anyone offering headwork that cheap chances are 99% they'll be crap and more likely to do more harm than good!!

Make sure you stick this thing back together with Felpro gaskets and use a new water and oil pump.

[AccordEpicenter]

If any of the main bearings are spun the crank and the block are junk. You also can't run b18 pistons unless you change to an b18a/b rod and I think b18 pistons have a different wrist pin height so idk if they will work in an a20.