A20 build or JDM B20a buy

[bryan6732]

So what to do?

1. Build my A20:
- Port and polish head
- Valve job
- Bisimoto Level 2 cam + valve springs + cam gear
- Go OBD1 with a tune-up

Gonna cost me at least €2k (about USD 2800)

2. Buy a complete JDM B20A gold top coming out of a BA1 Lude from New Zealand, with manual transmission.

Gonna cost me between €1800 and €2500 (USD 2500-3500) total.

What'd you guys recommend? And why?

[bryan6732]

And why?

[RAZR]

I voted for the a20 option
I want to see a built a20 and see what number u can get out of an NA a20. It would be awesome if u got over 160 with it.
How extreme do u wanna go with ur build?

[87roach]

Where did you manage to find titanium valve springs? .. Haha

Stick with a motor you can actually get parts for, b20 is cool and all but if you can't get parts then it's worthless.

[bryan6732]

I voted for the a20 option
I want to see a built a20 and see what number u can get out of an NA a20. It would be awesome if u got over 160 with it.
How extreme do u wanna go with ur build?

As far as the money allows me to, so step by step. What I've got now is a carbed A20a2 so first step
will be FI conversion with the already ported and polished B18 mani I have and my Pacesetter exhaust header.

What I would really like to have is this:



It's just so damn expensive, and I hate standalone ECUs. I suck in electrics!

But what I was thinking about is: IF I'd get 160 hp out of it, a B20 already has that stock (and with some cams.......).
The other side: my A20a4 already had 190 Nm torque (stock B20 has 186 I believe) with only the Pacesetter headers...

Where did you manage to find titanium valve springs? .. Haha

Stick with a motor you can actually get parts for, b20 is cool and all but if you can't get parts then it's worthless.

Hmm, always thought the Bisi springs were titanium, don't know why!

You're right, the parts thing is the only reason I'm still hesitating...

[cygnus x-1]

What I would really like to have is this:



It's just so damn expensive,

I have those, and they are expensive. They are also not a straightforward install. I had significant issues with getting all the TBs lined up correctly and staying that way after the engine warmed up. The intake manifold would heat up and expand enough to cause the intake manifold bolts to loosen. This would cause the manifold to warp slightly which would cause the throttle shafts to bind up not quite close all the way. I was able to minimize the issue by using silicone sealer on all the throttle bodies instead of paper gaskets (to minimize any shifting due to gasket compliance), and by tightening the crap out of the intake manifold to head bolts.

Something else I would strongly recommend with this setup is to use a filter box plate (like in the picture) to join all the throttle bodies together and help stabilize the assembly. I opted to use individual filters because I thought they would take up less space. Turns out they still take up a fair amount of space. I'll be building an air box eventually.

and I hate standalone ECUs. I suck in electrics!

If you want to stick with fuel injection you won't get far without some sort of tunable engine management, be it standalone or OBD1 conversion. You could of course go the carb route with twin Webers. Rjudgey could maybe even help you out with that since he's in the UK.


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[bryan6732]

I have those, and they are expensive. They are also not a straightforward install. I had significant issues with getting all the TBs lined up correctly and staying that way after the engine warmed up. The intake manifold would heat up and expand enough to cause the intake manifold bolts to loosen. This would cause the manifold to warp slightly which would cause the throttle shafts to bind up not quite close all the way. I was able to minimize the issue by using silicone sealer on all the throttle bodies instead of paper gaskets (to minimize any shifting due to gasket compliance), and by tightening the crap out of the intake manifold to head bolts.

Something else I would strongly recommend with this setup is to use a filter box plate (like in the picture) to join all the throttle bodies together and help stabilize the assembly. I opted to use individual filters because I thought they would take up less space. Turns out they still take up a fair amount of space. I'll be building an air box eventually.

Hmm, for the money you pay for it you'd expect it to be decent...
But for me those ITBs are still far away!

If you want to stick with fuel injection you won't get far without some sort of tunable engine management, be it standalone or OBD1 conversion. You could of course go the carb route with twin Webers. Rjudgey could maybe even help you out with that since he's in the UK.

Going OBD1 isn't really a big thing cause it's all plug and play.. That is,
if I can get in touch with Lx-Incredible and if he's willing to produce those
conversion harnesses. Don't know if he still does that. It's just quite expensive
too cause I'll need everything to be sent from the US to Europe (including the distributor and ECU),
which means I will also have to pay taxes and customs (23% of the total price).

But yeah, I've got all the time..

About the Webers... Maybe I'll do that eventually, but for now I've got my mind on a FI setup..

[Nafs Asdf]

Why not find an EDM B20A, would cost you a fraction of the JDM one?

[bryan6732]

Why not find an EDM B20A, would cost you a fraction of the JDM one?

Yeah that'd be an option, but it's not that much of a power gain..
Also, I've never seen a B20A2/8 Accord over here. Only one in Germany but that one was still driving around.

[Nafs Asdf]

For the same money that you'd spend on the JDM B20 you'd be able to get more power out of the EDM one, but as you said, might be difficult to find one.

[bryan6732]

For the same money that you'd spend on the JDM B20 you'd be able to get more power out of the EDM one, but as you said, might be difficult to find one.

Yeah.. But the idea is good actually. Might look into that too.
Shame I can't change the poll options!

About the EDM B20A1: Wiki insinuates that this engine is the European equivalent of the JDM B20A.
So in other words: same engine, less power, but still direct swap in a 3G?

[Nafs Asdf]

The B20A1 is from a 2g prelude right? So it would bolt in, I imagine it would be harder to find than a B20A2 or B20A8 tho.

[apache07x]

I voted for the A20 build. I got a JDM B20A in the garage I'm putting in mine but if I would have had any inkling of an idea how hard it would be to find parts for it there is no way I would have even considered it. I mean you can't even find a gasket set for it, easily at least. I haven't been able to find one yet and I've contacted or tried to contact every place in these 3geez forums and what I've found on the net without any luck. I've given up. So now I'm stuck with a motor that if it ever blows a head gasket I'm screwed as far as I can tell? It will be back to the A20 for me!

[cygnus x-1]

Hmm, for the money you pay for it you'd expect it to be decent...
But for me those ITBs are still far away!

Don't get me wrong, they're still way cool. It's just that they aren't a plug-n-play mod. But then ITBs never are. Binding throttle plates is a common problem with ITBs.

Tuning is also much harder than tuning with a common plenum setup.

Going OBD1 isn't really a big thing cause it's all plug and play.. That is,
if I can get in touch with Lx-Incredible and if he's willing to produce those
conversion harnesses. Don't know if he still does that. It's just quite expensive
too cause I'll need everything to be sent from the US to Europe (including the distributor and ECU),
which means I will also have to pay taxes and customs (23% of the total price).

Customs taxes are easy to get around since the shipper determines the value.


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[bryan6732]

The B20A1 is from a 2g prelude right? So it would bolt in, I imagine it would be harder to find than a B20A2 or B20A8 tho.

B20A1 is from EDM 2g lude and EDM 3g Accord (according to Wiki at least), so it is a direct swap indeed.
I found a guy who has a few of those blocks. But I guess these motors have the same parts problem as the JDM B20A, since they're the same... (right?)

Don't get me wrong, they're still way cool. It's just that they aren't a plug-n-play mod. But then ITBs never are. Binding throttle plates is a common problem with ITBs.

Tuning is also much harder than tuning with a common plenum setup.

Off course they're cool. ITB = cool (definition! )

Customs taxes are easy to get around since the shipper determines the value.

True..


I think It's clear, gonna keep the A20... Just gotta figure out whether I'm going FI or Webers.

[gfrg88]

If you're thinking about a20, which i think is better, I would look at Ryan's (hondalude86) build.. That's a bad ass n/a build if you ask me... and there's still more he could have done too... kinda mild actually, but still badass!!!!

[accordlxibseries]

look on ebay. you can find anything on there. i have a b20a that i was gonna swap but the parts are rare. just like the a20a3 parts are kind of rare. so either way you have to find rare parts. just pick your poison

[Nafs Asdf]

B20A1 is from EDM 2g lude and EDM 3g Accord (according to Wiki at least), so it is a direct swap indeed.
I found a guy who has a few of those blocks. But I guess these motors have the same parts problem as the JDM B20A, since they're the same... (right?)

I don't know if the A1 ever came in an Accord, I wouldn't rely too heavily on wikipedia.

I don't see why you would have a big problem with parts being you are in Europe. Any car parts dealer should have parts for it, or if all else fails go to your local honda dealer.

[bryan6732]

If you're thinking about a20, which i think is better, I would look at Ryan's (hondalude86) build.. That's a bad ass n/a build if you ask me... and there's still more he could have done too... kinda mild actually, but still badass!!!!

Lol don't look on the Prelude pages of the site too much, but his build looks great!
Although I want to do headwork mostly. But it's a great build fo sho!

look on ebay. you can find anything on there. i have a b20a that i was gonna swap but the parts are rare. just like the a20a3 parts are kind of rare. so either way you have to find rare parts. just pick your poison

A20 parts are available over here. OEM parts at least, not talking about aftermarket cause what's left of that we gotta have it shipped from the US...

I don't know if the A1 ever came in an Accord, I wouldn't rely too heavily on wikipedia.

I don't see why you would have a big problem with parts being you are in Europe. Any car parts dealer should have parts for it, or if all else fails go to your local honda dealer.

In fact, it doesn't really matter if it came in an Accord, since it's sure they're from a 2G Prelude so it will fit directly definitely.

For the parts story, I actually don't know about the availability of them in Europe. But IF they are, that opens doors to JDM B20As right????
Not that I'm going for one, buying it is just too expensive for what you get, but that still would be news...

[Hauntd ca3]

Don't get me wrong, they're still way cool. It's just that they aren't a plug-n-play mod. But then ITBs never are. Binding throttle plates is a common problem with ITBs.

Tuning is also much harder than tuning with a common plenum setup.
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itbs dont bind if you do them like mine
and if done like mine, with a vacum source from each throttle and a tps, tuning shouldnt be much different than a common plenum since the map reads the vac of all cylinders it will be a similar signal as a plenum

[rjudgey]

Tough call, if you have a manifold for one done it will fit either so thats good carbed or ITB, personally think your better going megasquirt than OBD1 it's easier to wire up and the software isn't too bad to use with 4 cylinder cars Cygnus has already proved that! You can run this on either engine, the ignition is standalone on the stock 3G accord/2G SI prelude so you could run webers or bike carbs which I'd imagine would be easy and cheap to get hold off in Holland if not definately in UK.
I have a couple of B20A preludes but I thought the rear mount was slightly different between 3G accord B20A and 2G prelude B20A???
They do come up on ebay cheap ones too so maybe worth looking to buy and ship over and scrap to put into your Accord, Probably best to hire a trailer and just bring it over that way? If they weren't so rare I'd sell you a complete setup I May consider it if the price was right I could also rebuild it and do some headwork but depends howmuch you have to play with!
I could also help you out with A20 build my A20 engine just ran a 14.1 second 1/4 mile this weekend with a stock hand built A20A4 block, A20 head with big valves, 285 camshaft from pipers in UK, webers on custom inlet manifold that I could get made for you again (or you can use on ITB's and run cheaper ones than pictured above), also the head was using a stock cast manifold 4-2-1 type with custom 2-1 downpipe 2" tubing to 2.5" collector and mandrel bent system. If you don't have to run a CAT this setup can easily produce 170-190bhp depending on final CR ratio, ignition setup, and camshaft choice. And more can be had if you had really high CR ratio pistons and some other custom stuff made up, custom header would be a must as well as some other bits and bobs to help. Also you could get a 1G integra/CRX gearbox and take it's gears and swap into yours, LSD from B16A and later 2001 Civic SI, 2G 1.8l prelude flywheel machined and clutchnet plate and disk will have your drivetrain sorted out too!!

[bryan6732]

First of all, thanks for the extensive respond (btw thanks to all of you who commented!)

What I have in mind now (subject to change) is a built A20 head with Webers.
I've found a company (Van Kronenburg, some might know them from their KMS ECUs) who can do my head for about €1k, which includes:

- Port and polish intake and exhaust channels
- Regrind camshaft
- Head milling and cleaning
- Grinding and cleaning valves, seats, guides

That is, if everything goes by plan. (I'm taking my own disassembled head, so they don't do any (dis)assembling at all)
Don't know whether this is a good price or not.

Oh and rjudgey, you've got PM.

[rjudgey]

Depends can you get an exact detail of what they are doing type of seats they're cutting and specs, and also for the camshaft as well.
To me this price seems a little high in the UK I could get the same stuff done for less, seats cut to pro std £250 radius 5 angle (maybe less as 12 valve), port clean up on all 8 ports £200, Head skim £40, clean £10, camshaft £200 for a grind from Pipers.

To be honest don't keep stock guides have new ones from SI valves sent to you they are cheap as chips shipping will cost more than the guides!! Then having them fitted is cheap too. And you really should invest in bigger valves as well but these are a little pricier but SI Valves again can help out send you some blanks and have them machined to suit your head. Or Smeado has some options as well on the valves which will help. A20 Head can take 32mm inlet valves and 37mm exhaust valves easily which is a nice step up from stock. You can go bigger but will need new seats and a bigger bore size!! 83.5mm pistons would enable you to go upto around 34mm inlet size maybe even 35mm!! Something I'm considering next anyway!

[rjudgey]

For 2000 euro you could get quite a lot of something done, especially if I help you out you can easily make big power with either engine, just depends on what route you want to take, EFI or carbs, as your already carbs I'd say stick with that unless fuel bills is a big concern but to be honest EFI isn't that much more efficient!! I drove my car to the track and back which is about 100miles away did 15 drag runs and a few runs on the handling circuit and used about a full tank off fuel maybe a smidge over 65-70litres in total and I wasn't driving slowly to track and back steady 85 on the highway and then lots of country driving. If just on highway probably could manage 400miles at cruising speed even with Integra box.

[cygnus x-1]

itbs dont bind if you do them like mine

I forget now, you used the Toyota 4AGE setup?

There are definitely better and worse designs. In my particular case most of the problem was caused by the intake manifold bolts working loose, but the way mine are setup they are more sensitive to this than other designs. But the advantage to the Extrudabody design is that it's totally modular. I can change the runner lengths before and after the throttle plate if needed for tuning. I can also change base plates or spacing if I wanted to put them on a different engine.

I do really like the Kinsler design too where they put the throttle shafts vertically and connect them with a linkage instead of couplers.

and if done like mine, with a vacum source from each throttle and a tps, tuning shouldnt be much different than a common plenum since the map reads the vac of all cylinders it will be a similar signal as a plenum

Tapping from each runner helps but the signal is still pretty lumpy. How much so depends a lot on the cam too. If your ECU can use the TPS for fueling as well as MAP it will be much easier since the MAP tends to change very little once the throttles open a little. For example, on mine, above maybe 10% throttle position the MAP is already up to 90% of full scale. Above maybe 30% throttle the MAP is totally useless.


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