i know we've been over this before but...

[markmdz89hatch]

OK, Jim, I need you to spell it out for me once again.

I know that i can send Billsteins back to the company to get revalved for a harder rebound setting. That's kool, but I don't have Billsteins.

But I've also heard that Koni offers the same thing too. Is that true? (Yeah, can you tell I have the Koni's?)

Now another thing that got my attention was the mention of the fact that I can get the Koni's shortened too. That's some real good news for the autocrossing enthusiast that I am. How do I go about doing that too?


Now maybe this should be in another thread, but as you may remember, I'm the dope that wanted to be diff. then all the rest and get the ever covetted B&G's. And once installed, instead of the claimed 1.6" drop, it was more like 2.6+". So now I'm thinking that I do LOVE the stiffness of that spring, and want to know if there is anything with a comparable, or even harder, spring rate then those without having to move up to the G.C.'s.

[markmdz89hatch]

OK, just to give you guys an idea...
...and so you know what ur getting into if you go with B&G's, here's a few before and after pics....
...and remember that these were taken the day after the springs and shocks were installed... ...they didn't even have a chance to settle yet... ...and they certainly fell summ'o.

BEFORE:


AFTER:

^--and Andrews car is lowered too! Buh..!

[Coroncho80]

I like that last picture. The car in the back looks nice, is that an sei????

[Neuspeed87lx]

haha coroncho isnt that yours?

[Coroncho80]

Man, I knew that pretty ass was kind of familiar! lol

[Jims 86LXI HB]

Originally posted by markmdz89hatch
OK, Jim, I need you to spell it out for me once again.

I know that i can send Billsteins back to the company to get revalved for a harder rebound setting. That's kool, but I don't have Billsteins.

But I've also heard that Koni offers the same thing too. Is that true? (Yeah, can you tell I have the Koni's?)

Now another thing that got my attention was the mention of the fact that I can get the Koni's shortened too. That's some real good news for the autocrossing enthusiast that I am. How do I go about doing that too?

So now I'm thinking that I do LOVE the stiffness of that spring, and want to know if there is anything with a comparable, or even harder, spring rate then those without having to move up to the G.C.'s.

BTW the revalve I did on the Bilsteins took them from being 15% stiffer than stock (Bilsteins words) to being 190% stiffer than stock. And that was for rebond and compression. I wanted them to be able to handle up to a 400lbs spring rate.

Yes you can get the Koni's revalved and shortened. Here's a cut and paste from when I did the reaseach on this a few months ago.

"On your Koni's. I talked to gordon at Koni and he said that it cost's $100 per strut to revalve plus parts. He said that the parts should not add up to much. He confirmed that you can revalve them based on what spring rates your using. Plus if at the time your having the revalve done you want them to convert them to EXTERNAL adjustment, it would only cost you $25 per strut. And I asked me if a revalve is the same as a rebuild and he said no, extra parts would be involved, but he said it would cost much less since the strut would be torn down anyways. And one more thing that may interest you, for $65 per strut, they can shorten the body and piston. Which I would highly recommend with you running them so low."

And on the question about if their's any other spring you can get that is stiffer than the B&G's you have other than going with GC. The answer is yes, but you may not like it. Drop zone coilovers are. But they are so stiff that their's no way that I could recommend running them with stock koni's, you'd really have to revalve them stiffer. Your B&G's are 350lbs front and 240lbs rear
The drop zone coilovers are 450front and 350rear. Otherwise I went over my spring rate chart and their aren't any springs that are stiffer than the B&G's, they are all really close cept for the sportlines with thier wildly low rear spring rates and the H&R's/Neuspeeds, which are much softer. Even the Ground-Controls would have to be custom set up to be different, stock they are about the same as the B&G's. But since they are NOT a progressive spring, the GC's would have a different feel just for that fact. It's the difference between linear springs and progressive springs.

[markmdz89hatch]

Jim, once again, you never cease to amaze me...
Thanks ! That's the info I wanted to hear, but I must admit, bet. the rebuild, revalve, and shortening, I end up paying 2x what that strut is worth all over again. Makes you really put things into perspective...

Anyway, that's what I've gotta do. Do you have the contact info for Koni, and even if possible, where to send them.

As far as getting them revalved, do you suggest that I revalve them to a rate to match the spring rates, or a little less/more? Should I shorten the struts the exact amount of the drop that the springs provided?

About going with the DropZones, don't ask me why, but I wanna stick with the old fashion strut/spring setup rather then the coil-overs. (I'll save that for the coupe i'm picking up today.) Not to mention, in light of the prices on the Koni work, I'll deal with the B&G's and see just where I am once all is said and done. I think that despite the rediculous drop, with the proper shock/spring setup, and corresponding (hard) reboud-spring rates, and proper offset, the rubbing and stress on the car should be at a minnimmun even during autocrossing. That is unless you disagree.

[Jims 86LXI HB]

859-586-4100 7:30am to 4:00pm EST, ask for gordon. The address to sent them to for revalveing, shortning ect is.
KONI North America
Attn: Service Center
1961 A International Way
Hebron, KY 41048
Please include a note of the services required and your name, address and a daytime phone number. Normal turnaround time is 2 to 3 weeks. It looks like you have to prepay for the services you request, VISA or MASTERCARD

Ya know before you do this check out a possible plan B. Call gordon and tell he you heard that instead of doing this that you might be able to use sport Koni's ment for the 94-99 integra. Ask him how the sports are valved for that application, like what is the maximum spring rate that are ment to handle. Ask him to walk you through the demensional diagrams of both struts.Gordon will know what to look for and can tell you if it's possible or not. I think you'd need to add a pair of coilover mounts from OpmMotorsports for $70. I'm pretty sure I know of a place that sell those sports for $129 each. So if they work your looking at $328

As far as rubbing, if you can't avoid it through out the suspension's entire travel range, you really should really roll the rear fenders or get new rims if that doesn't work with a better offset. Trying to not let the suspension have all it's possible travel isn't the way to avoid rubbing, not the right cure.

[markmdz89hatch]

OK, Jim, thanks for that contact info. I called up Gordon last night and spoke with him for about a half-hour about all possible avenues of attack.

The verdict is in, and here's what the jury had to say...

...first, in regards to plan B... ..I mentioned that to him, we went over the specs on both the 3G and the 94-99 Teg. and compared them. Overall, yeah, they're similar, however one major obstacle is the actaul height of the shock, both at full throw, and fully compressed. It was determined that the Teg shocks, at full compression, are very similar in length to the 3G's at full extension. What does this mean? This means that although there is a little room for dampening, the overall throw/range of the shock is so greatly reduced that essentially any fair bump, or hard turn may cause you to ride the bump stop due to complete compression of the shock. This will greatly hinder the shocks ability to perform, and act more of a straight pipe from the axle to the body once you're at full compression. So, that idea was decided as not practical. Now, it was time to walk down the rebuild/revalve road.

We decided that unless I'm running out of travel (aka. hitting the bump-stop frequently, there will be no need for shortening. It must also be remembered that even if you are bump-rubbing, if you're going to revalve it, the revalve will aid in preventing this further. One simple test he suggested to determine how badly/if at all, i'm hitting the bump, is to take a wire-tie, and twist it around the shaft of the shock tightly, then drive a normal day, and later, look to see just where that wire-tie ends up. If it's not touching the bump, then you should be fine. If it's just about at the bump, or even touching it, then that means you've at least touched the bump somewhere in ur travels. However, if you look and that tie is smashed up against, the bump, or even appears to have been inhaled by the bump, then you could use a shortening. His words "you may not evne be able to feel that you're riding, or hitting the bump-stop because of the absorbent composition of the bump-rubber itself. That is why it's neccessary to perform this test."

Anyway, now that we've gotten this far, here's the info on the revalve... If you choose to go with a revalve, all the info you need to provide to them is the spring rate of the springs you're using with these shocks. They will then revalve the shocks rebound to handle that spring rate. Being that the Koni's for our shocks are adjustable, the revalve will be set to correspond to the spring rate provided at half-tension. This will enable you to increase/decrease the rebound to either above or below the current spring rate.

Pricing...
It's 100 per shock to get them revalved. When the revalve, they automaticaly "rebuild" the shock. "there's no sense in putting bad seals or other bad hardware back on a shock if ur revalving it" <--good point! Anyway, if you then choose to get the shock converted to an external adjustment, which is reccommended, that's another 25 per shock. Now the only variation from that price will come into play if they find that they need to replace other hardware within the shock. Gordon assured me that worse case scenario on that would be another 50 per shock. So... that brings our grand total to (worst case scenario) 175 per shock. Now that may seem like a lot, but remember that this means NO more bounce at ALL. This also means that b/c you've now got corresponding rebound/spring rates, you're shock will not have to work half as hard, and take less then half the abuse, meaning these will last quite a while longer then others.

Hope this helps everyone....

[Jims 86LXI HB]

Ummmm, something doesn't add up about the teg strut comparo for them to be the measure compressed to be equal to a 3g sturt uncompressed. I recommend that you call Bilstein and speak to Jack to get a second opinion on that.

The reason for doing the plastic wire tie on the strut rod is so you can go out and see how far your struts are going into the strut body. To see if you are comming close to hitting the bumpstops if at all.

I pinned him (gordon) down on the simularities between doing a revalve and a rebuild. He stopped for a moment and said that they are close but not the same and that if would cost more to do a rebuild as well since warn parts get replaced on the rebuild that don't get replaced on the revalve.

If your not going to shorten the koni's I highly recommend that you do the math of selling your current koni's and purchase revalved Bilsteins, just a thought.

Does you your car bounce right now? Reading the text I get the impression that your saying that it does. If it is, pull the sturts and max out the rebound to 1 1/2 turns. Your running on 1 full turn right now, right?

[markmdz89hatch]

Jim, I didn't mean to leave the impression that I was disagreeing with what you've said. I hope it didn't come across that way. Yeah, ur right about the rebuild v. revalve, but Gordon mentioned that whenever he does a revalve, he also does a rebuild. As he put it, there is no sense in putting a worn part back on a new revalve. That's where he mentioned the 100 for revalve, 25 for external adjustment, and 50(max) for "replacement of worn parts" (aka. rebuild). Actually, yeah, it does bounce more then I'd expect, not that anyone else would notice the bounce (b/c it is WAY stiffer then stock), but after having KYB AGX w/eibach springs in my 300, at full tension, that bitch was like riding with bricks for wheels (didn't even think about bouncing). I know that's not camparing apples to apples, but let's just say that I expected better from them then what I actually got. As far as what mine are set at, quite honestly, I'm not positive. If I'm not mistaken, they're at full tension, but I could be wrong.

As far as pricing goes, what will a set of revalved Billsteins run me? I'll compare that price with the price of the Koni-revalve prject and make my decision from there.

Thanks for all the help you've been Jim. You've really opened my eyes to why suspension does what it does, and all the benefits of every aspect of it.

[Coroncho80]

***Talk about long ass emails!*** lol

[Jims 86LXI HB]

Originally posted by markmdz89hatch
Jim, I didn't mean to leave the impression that I was disagreeing with what you've said. I hope it didn't come across that way. Yeah, ur right about the rebuild v. revalve, but Gordon mentioned that whenever he does a revalve, he also does a rebuild. As he put it, there is no sense in putting a worn part back on a new revalve. That's where he mentioned the 100 for revalve, 25 for external adjustment, and 50(max) for "replacement of worn parts" (aka. rebuild). Actually, yeah, it does bounce more then I'd expect, not that anyone else would notice the bounce (b/c it is WAY stiffer then stock), but after having KYB AGX w/eibach springs in my 300, at full tension, that bitch was like riding with bricks for wheels (didn't even think about bouncing). I know that's not camparing apples to apples, but let's just say that I expected better from them then what I actually got. As far as what mine are set at, quite honestly, I'm not positive. If I'm not mistaken, they're at full tension, but I could be wrong.

As far as pricing goes, what will a set of revalved Billsteins run me? I'll compare that price with the price of the Koni-revalve prject and make my decision from there.

Thanks for all the help you've been Jim. You've really opened my eyes to why suspension does what it does, and all the benefits of every aspect of it.

Hey I'm the one that's sorry if I gave you any impressions that are bad, no no no, sorry about that. Ya know, I'm starting to wonder if something more than just ride height is amiss with your springs. I wonder if you got a set of springs that should never made it threw quality control. Do you still have your receipt on them? Just a thought, might be worth calling B&G and tell them you want to make a warranty claim. Cause what I don't understand is when the Koni's run with GC, guys don't report the bounce your talking about. Spring rates are simular and much more telling is the fact that the GC's are a linear spring, which should be harder for a strut to control. In any event, if I were you I'd pull one of the fronts and see where you have the rebound set to.

Here's Bilstein revalve pricing. $370 to buy the sturts $260 to revalve ='s $630 If you were to sell your koni's you'd want to deduct the sale amount from the $630 cost. I will remind you that it was my evaluation that compaired to the koni's, the revalved bilsteins had better dampning properties that seemed to be related more to their design, then to their stiffness. But make no bones about them, before I revalved them, I could not stand them. It took the revalve to show what they could do, IMO.