The trouble with having a used car

**Don87LX** · 05-11-2002, 08:19 AM

You dont know the quality of the work done on it before hand. I just went to install my new pacesetter header just to find my stock manifold is missing three nuts and has a snapped stud. The three studs missing nuts are rusted beyond recognition now becasue of being exposed.

**Jims 86LXI HB** · 05-11-2002, 08:37 AM

Yeah that true, but it's still a heck of allot cheaper than car payments. And if you ask me, the cheapest new car out their is a total bunch of garbage compaired to our 13+ year old cars. I don't even think the latest civic is as good, I've driven it and just wasn't impressed. Frankly the ford focus ZX-3 is a better car.(opps did I just say that

)

**Hoshizakido** · 05-11-2002, 09:16 AM

haha focus being better then a civic why not they both look the same a oversized geo metro

**Jims 86LXI HB** · 05-11-2002, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by Hoshizakido
haha focus being better then a civic why not they both look the same a oversized geo metro

You have to drive the latest civic to understand what I'm talking about. The latest civic is a big stepbackwards for honda. The previous generation was a much better product. The focus has superior engine power delivery, ride, handeling, and it's manuel trans shifts much better then honda's latest effort. In all those catigories the new civic is a dramatic step backwards. But I'm not alone on how I feel about the focus. Read any magizine that has tested a ZX-3 and they all agree it is one of the best drivers cars in its class. That does not mean it is more reliable or that it will hold its value, if at all. And I'll say this to, I really don't like the looks of the car either. But it does drive very nice.

**Bobs89LXi** · 05-11-2002, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by Hoshizakido
haha focus being better then a civic why not they both look the same a oversized geo metro

No, the Civic does win in the looks department. If you ask me, the Focus looks like they took a Civic and kicked it in the ass. If the tail lights were sitting up any higher, they would be on top of the roof. It's the same with the Honda CR-V, except the body lines look better on a CR-V. I also agree with Jim. The lowest cost new cars aren't even half the cars our 3G Accords are, even with all the problems that come with old age.

Speaking of low cost cars, can you believe that they are going to re-intruduce the Yugo to the American market. Well, it's not a Yugo per se, but will be built by the same company and be just as cheap. So soon we'll be seeing those marvels of Slavic technology, the ol coffee cans with wheels back on the roads. The list price for these beauties will be between $5000 and $8000.

**Einstein** · 05-11-2002, 05:11 PM

My 01 Civic was boring and very numb in the steering. Too many quality shortcuts, too. Our 92 Civic was much more likeable. We should have kept it.

I have to disagree on saying today's cars are a bunch of garbage compared to 13 years ago.

Our S2000 has the same size engine as our LXi, but puts out exactly twice as much horsepower. It's well screwed together, and goes 120,000 miles before any major service is required (no timing belt, either).

My LXi is considered a "beater", but I like the car and consider it much better than other choices in the $2000 price range.

But don't beat up Honda too badly. They've taken quality shortcuts to save cost like domestic cars were doing in the 80's. But they are doing it much more gracefully!

**Bobs89LXi** · 05-11-2002, 06:31 PM

Einstein,

I am assuming what Jim meant was LOW END new cars. What was included in the 3G's of 13 years ago is much more than lower priced new cars today, as far as accessories and options. I do agree that the high end new cars such as the S2000 have more in the way of power and options. The price also reflects that fact. 13 years ago, the 3G Accord averaged anywhere from $5000 to $9000 new, depending on options and trim package. You can't even get a POS stripped Hyundai for that price these days. The inflation in the price of new cars is almost criminal.

**Einstein** · 05-12-2002, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by Bobs89LXi
The inflation in the price of new cars is almost criminal.

Bob,

Consider this:

When I bought our 92 Civic EX new, we had to add air conditioning, upgrade the radio, floor mats, and other stuff to get what we wanted in the car. We spent $18,000.

When I bought our 01 Civic EX, A/C a good stereo, and floor mats came standard. We spent $18,000 again.

9 years, no inflation, got 4 airbags instead of 1, and the list goes on. To keep the price low, Honda finds ways to decontent the car and reduce the labor required.

Common inflation rules tells you things double in price every 10 years (or something like that.) There is nothing criminal. In fact, cars are better engineered, safer, and a better value than they were 13 years ago.

**Bobs89LXi** · 05-12-2002, 10:28 AM

$18,000 for a 92 Civic EX new?? Talk about your dealer markup, considering the fact that the average price for a Civic back then was at, or a tad bit under 10 grand. I stand by what I said. For the $5000-$9000 price of a 3G Accord new, you can't buy even a basic low end new car, unless the dealer is having a clearance sale. The price of new cars has gotten so outrageously high that dealers are now offering 72 MONTH finance plans, something totally unheard of 10 years ago. For those who don't want that long a commitment, there is the lease option, which in itself is a huge rip-off. Don't get me wrong, I agree the new cars are well engineered and there have been great advances on the performance and safety side. However, I believe it doesn't justify the huge jump in the sticker price over the last 15 years when compared to the rise in the sticker prices for other durable goods. PCs are a great example. The price of a new 486-66 system with monitor, printer, and software bundle in 1990 was around $1000. Today, you can get a decent P4 1GHz system for around the same price. Same price, more computer. Whereas with cars, you get a little more car, but at a much higher price. The best way to go these days is buying a late model used car. That way, the previous owner has paid for the cost of depreciation.

**Einstein** · 05-12-2002, 04:37 PM

Like I said, I like my car loaded, and that's what the 92 was. The EX didn't come with A/C and a few other things, but these were made part of the EX package later.

When I said decont above, I should have said reduce the number of unique components on the car. Honda has done well at doing this to keep the price low.

I feel the best way to buy a car is to buy new and keep a very long time with excellent adherence to the maintenance schedule. Buy used, and unless you are very savvy (I'm a Mechanical Engineer and checked the Accord over thoroughly) you can buy a car that has been in an accident or poorly maintained. Then you end up very unhappy. Instead, buy new and you have at least 3 years to get all the bugs worked out (if there are any at all).

I don't have a very good record of keeping a car a long time. I've had other cars than Honda, but I didn't list them. But I've settled on the cars I have now, and will drive the Accord till it's too expensive to fix.

I bought my S2000 on a 84 month plan. That should make you gasp! But I plan to pay the whole thing off in a year when I close on a settlement. I wanted to keep my payment low until then.

The reason banks are willing to loan 7 years? Cars last longer than they had a reputation of doing so 10 years ago! I've never leased a car, and never will. I always intend to keep my cars a long time. And I always pay them off early. I've been restless about cars over the past years, but I feel the mix I have now is perfect for me for a long time to come. Cars are poor investments, unless you are a dealer. I plan to invest my money somewhere else in the future.

Electronics always goes down in price as technology is already out there and there is plenty of competition. Overseas manufacture doesn't hurt, either. I'm talking about overall inflation and the cost of money. Consider the price of a house, for instance. 12 years ago your house probably cost less than half as much as it costs today.

Things to think about. A lot depends on your financial position. I love cars more than any other hobby, so I don't regret my purchases. Until I got the S2000 I felt my life wasn't complete. Now every day I work so hard, I feel it's all worthwhile

If I was bringing up a handful of kids or was barely making ends meet, I would feel different for sure.

**Bobs89LXi** · 05-12-2002, 05:51 PM

I agree with you on one thing. Buying a used car is a game of Russian Roulette. However, I look at it this way. I have a brother who is a mechanic. If I plan on the purchase of another car, it will be a late-model (1-4years old), and I have every right to take it to my brother and have him inspect it before I purchase. I used to be big on cars just like you are. However, I have gotten more practical in my old age. I use it as a tool now more than a toy.

**Don87LX** · 05-13-2002, 05:05 AM

Wow. And I just wanted to bitch about the ham handed moron who took my Exaust manifold off last at some point in the cars life...didnt mean to start a philisophical debate.

**Jims 86LXI HB** · 05-13-2002, 08:26 AM

It doesn't take a mechanical genius to make a wise used car buy.
Buy a reliable brand that you have checked out by your favorite service guy. The money that will be spent on new car payments monumently out paces your chances of spending anyway near the same amount on a used car which has a reputation for reliablity. Your new car stands the same chance to be a money pit as well. Unless you never drive it. You can place all the spins you want on this to justify your fetish for a new car. It will make you happy, for forever needing a new high, more excitement.

It's ok to admit you buy new cars because you have a weakness for something new regularly. I have the same problem.
But the money trail will fault your logic in justifying those purchases based on the unjustified fear by buying used. It's unjustified because double jeopardy places your own logic back against you. You site the risk of spending money on repairs for the risky used car, new cars break to. So even your shiny new car is at risk on needing repairs. Just look at any of the surveys that road and track has done throughout the years on not so used cars. In those surveys, even new cars are shown to sometimes need repairs.

**Einstein** · 05-13-2002, 09:46 AM

A good question is WHY the person traded or is selling the car in question. Buying used is definitely more risky than buying new. There's SOME reason another person was willing to "lose" the depreciation on it.

Think about the person who bought the new car and is trading in a few days. Good opportunity to beat the hell out of the car for the fun of it.

Oh, and the greater population doesn't know how to drive stick shift gracefully. If you buy used, I think it's better look for an automatic. Check the dipstick for reasonably clean fluid. It's almost impossible for people to over-revv an automatic. But engines can take some huge damage from a bad downshift in a stick shift.

I also recommend not buying "riced."

**Night Rida** · 05-13-2002, 02:04 PM

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!!!..............

I could not read all that arguing people!!!
Let me say one thing and I'm out!
They don't make cars like they used too!!!
Jay
Night Rida:badass:

**accordlx** · 05-13-2002, 02:41 PM

OK, I have to put my 2¢ in on this conversation.

First, new cars cost too much for what you get. I would never finance a vehicle for 84 months. I'm sorry but that is just me.

Also, buying a used car IS a crap shoot in many circumstances. There are many tricks to making a used car run well for about 200 miles before it takes a dump on you. I know about a half a dozen tricks that used car dealers use to conceal serious problems that the layman would never even consider.

That is where the consumer should be proactive and take a mechanic with them when they do buy a car. This is the easiest way of not getting burnt.

Also, you should try to negotiate at least a 30 day warranty on a a used car even if the sticker in the window says that the car does not come with that warranty. Remember, it doesnt hurt to ask.

Buying a car from a private party is the most dangerous of the used car buys because once you buy that car, you are basically stuck with it. You are also buying many times from a complete stranger who's credibility you cannot verify.

I have been lucky for the most part in my automotive purchases. I have only been burnt once but that was for a vehicle that again had hidden engine problems.

Many times, I have sold my cars for more than I paid for them. That is because I will absolutely wait for a bargain and not impulse buy.

Buy what you want but wait for it to be on sale at someone else's expense. Also, find out from the owner why they are willing to take a hit on depreciation. Chances are that they will at least give you a hint of what's really wrong with the car.

**TeKKnoTeKK** · 05-13-2002, 04:10 PM

damn accordlx....do you ever post less than a page anymore? lol

**Einstein** · 05-13-2002, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by Night Rida
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!!!..............

I could not read all that arguing people!!!
Let me say one thing and I'm out!
They don't make cars like they used too!!!
Jay
Night Rida:badass:

Who's Arguing? We're discussing, put your guns away

As Peter Cetera said, "They don't make em like they used to. I think there better than before" I guess you agree

**rocky2** · 05-13-2002, 05:50 PM

Time to get out the metric die nuts and drill bits and tap set.

Used car purchase tip: bring someone with you,and get on it big time and look ,smell ,smell somemore for scents afterwards

**vtec11** · 05-14-2002, 07:48 AM

Originally posted by Bobs89LXi
Einstein,

13 years ago, the 3G Accord averaged anywhere from $5000 to $9000 new, depending on options and trim package. You can't even get a POS stripped Hyundai for that price these days. The inflation in the price of new cars is almost criminal.

Can anyone else verify this ? maybe someone that bought there 3G brand new. I thought a 3G LXi went for around $14-15k MSRP. Not 9K. And there arn't really any options. Just trim levels, DX, LX, LXi and accessories..

**Einstein** · 05-14-2002, 07:54 AM

Take a look at this sticker for a stick shift model from 13 years ago. Looks like it's more than $5-9,000

**vtec11** · 05-14-2002, 10:08 AM

Einstein,
thanks for the info.

Yeah, i knew there's no way 3G accords would be sold that cheap. Even 13 years ago. Because around that time the cheapest hyundai excel's without AC and Automatics were selling for $5-6k.

**accordlx** · 05-14-2002, 07:47 PM

My Dad (God rest his soul) bought a 1984 Honda Accord (2nd Gen) which I inherited after the got the 3G. (I now drive the 3rd gen. he drove. I bought it from the family after it was thrashed.)

The 2nd Gen Honda was about $12.500 brand new. I think it was the first car he ever owned that came with AM/FM casette.

The 3rd Gen Honda was right around $15,500 back in 1988.

I don't think you could have got a new 1st gen Accord between $5000- $9000.

If you think about how much the dollar has appreciated since 1988, our cars were not cheap. I know that the sticker for my 1985 BMW 318i was right around $18,000 nicely equipped which was not much more than the Honda.

Using the CPI (consumer price index) comparing the worth of a 1988 dollar to the 2002 dollar you can figure out how much my 1988 Accord would cost you in current currency. You divide the price of the car that you paid in 1988 by .656 to get a comparible price. This is a real yardstick, not just something I made up.

If you take $15,500 and divide by .656, you get a 1988 accord that would cost you $23,628.05 in today's money. This was not a cheap car by any measure.

I tried to make a car comparable to mine on Honda's website that has comparable features to mine when it was new. The car I created was $22,398 which is over $1000 cheaper than the comparable new cost of my 1988 Accord. Sounds crazy but our old Hondas cost more new than the new Hondas cost new if that makes any sense.

If you want to figure out what your Honda would cost you in 2002 dollars for yourself, here is the chart.

CPI conversion chart

**accordlx** · 05-14-2002, 07:59 PM

Einstein, with the options you listed on your sticker, your car would have cost $23,495.64 in 2002 dollars. That is even more than mine would have cost.

***Jareds 89 LX-i*** · 05-14-2002, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by accordlx
Einstein, with the options you listed on your sticker, your car would have cost $23,495.64 in 2002 dollars. That is even more than mine would have cost.

Hey, that was my car sticker, lol

You're right Chris, buying from a private owner can be a gamble. Luckily we've had good luck with private party sales. My mom had a Mercury and a Buick that she bought from dealers and both gave lots of problems (though the 3800 V6 on the Buick was very nice!). My sister got her '89 Mazda 323 hatch from a private owner back in 1995/6 with 89,000 miles on it, and finally traded it in 2000 with about 160,000 and never had any major probs (which is saying alot considering she really didn't take care of the thing -- never even changed the t-belt). My mom also bought the '89 Accord from a private owner in 1997 with 140,000, and in the 150,000 we've put on it since we've had it, it's been the most god damn reliable car on the face of this earth! All depends on how they take care of it. Alot of times you can tell by the person themselves, and kinda get a feeling. This guy we bought the Accord from you could tell took incredible care of his cars. He was a middle age man in a REAL nice neighborhood (meaning he had $$$), and the wife and kids. And we did ask him why he was selling it, and it was simply because him and his wife kept making babies (and trust me, they were) and bought a minivan (a Dodge

after a Honda??? C'mon). The car was immaculate inside and out, and drove like new. He was the 1st and only owner, and all reciepts and records were in the glove box, including all the dealer scheduled services (30k, 60k, 90k, 120k, etc). So we just got a really good feeling about this guy. Turns out, he wasn't hiding anything from us. I even called him up about a year or so ago and talked to him for a little while about the car (had to find out if he ever changed the clutch, which he hadn't), and I told him how good it's been and how happy we were with it, so he was quite happy to hear it (though he said he wasn't suprised, it had been so reliable for him too)

Damn, I just wrote another long ass babbling story. Sorry....