Trouble with my 81 Accord, Need help

[atkin68]

Hope someone can help me ID what's wrong with my 81 Accord. I have had trouble with the idle ever since I've owned it - tends to idle too low and die when it's not choked. But it hasn't been too big of a problem and I've adjusted to it.

However, Monday night on the way home the car just started chugging like it was running out of gas. I was low on gas at the time so I thought that was it. Put gas in it, and the problem persisted and got worse. No power under load, until about 3500 rpm, and even then it chugs badly. When I choke it and start it up, it now races up immediately to like 4500 or 5000 rpm. Before it would go to like 3000.

I've replaced the fuel filter, fuel pump, plugs, wires, cap, rotor, and air filter. I'm getting spark all the way around, and I know I'm getting fuel. I'm wondering if it's the carb, but I have never touched one so have no experience diagnosing it. Also wondering about an exhaust blockage, but it doesn't seem that way.

At this point I'm lost. Anyone have any thoughts? Really appreciate any input. Thanks.

Dave

[Dr_Snooz]

Do you have sight glasses on the side of your carb? If so, check the float adjustment. Also check the timing. It sounds like a bad carb to me, but I'm no expert. FWIW, mere mortals do not tempt the gods by trying to rebuild these carbs.

[lostscotiaguy]

mere mortals do not tempt the gods by trying to rebuild these carbs.

He speaks the truth!
I partook of the quest to conquer the god "3Bbbl Keihin" and to make it submit to my will and do my bidding. It was an 8 year battle that left me scarred both mentally and financially. Ultimately when my valiant effort had reached it's ultimate zenith, and I thought I had victory within my grasp, it was ripped from my hands as the gods "Smog" and "Stoichiometry" openly mocked me and rendered my very soul from me. It was only then, within the bowels of a plane of hell called "The-damn-car-wont-even-run-AT-ALL-anymore" that I released the shackles that imprisoned me, and found solace in a NEW god. It's name was "Weber 32/36".
I have been reborn anew....and now my car finally f***in runs properly.

Sorry guys.... I gotta stop staying up so late...I get a little carried away.

[atkin68]

Thanks for your thoughts guys. I was thinking about the carb yesterday, and I'm definitely too intimidated by that job to consider jumping in. If I replaced it rather than try to fix it, what is the degree of difficulty on just swapping it the webber as has been suggested?

Last night a friend suggested it could be the vacuum advance diaphragm on the distributor. So I pulled the distributor and in the process of trying to get the vacuum advance off I noticed two loose components inside the distributor: one was a plastic spacer/bumper thing that goes in the space beneath one of the tabs on the cap, the other was one of the two bushings beneath the igniter unit. Looking closer I realized that the ring/gasket between the distributor frame and the cap, which I see in the diagram in the shop manual, was missing altogether, as well as the other rubber spacer thing (i don't know what to call those). In the diagram it looks as if those bumpers are held in place by that gasket, and my guess is that with the gasket missing it rattled loose and did some damage inside the distributor? As for the bushing, I can only guess that the screw passing through it rattled loose and allowed it to slip out. At first I thought those two items might be inhibiting the movement of the vacuum advance arm, so I put them back in place hoping I'd found my diagnosis. Not to be.

To make sure, I took the vacuum advance off and gave it a suck - I was able to repeatedly move the arm in and out with suction, so I've eliminated the vacuum advance as a cause. Now I'm thinking that with the missing gasket, and floating objects inside the distributor housing all that time, the distributor is damaged and it's the problem. It can't be the igniter cause that would be a no-start situation, and I've eliminated the vacuum advance. Maybe the centrifugal apparatus is gummed up/damaged and can't do it's thing?

The other thing I'm hearing is a prominent hiss around the carb but I can't see anything that's disconnected or cracked/broken. Still it's obvious there's something sucking and maybe that means that down the line there's no suction on the vacuum advance diaphragm? I don't want to buy a new distributor until I eliminate the possibility that a vacuum leak is my real problem.

[Dr_Snooz]

Yes, a vacuum leak could be the problem. It doesn't sound like the distributor is bad, but I'll let an actual 1g owner weigh in on that.

[lostscotiaguy]

Re: Installing the weber.
This is a great post from a friend of mine that explains everything. I did mine slightly different due to my unwillingess to cut my throttle cable (It's a long story why...) and I used a different setup for my throttle return spring.

http://www.preludepower.com/forums/s...d.php?t=347950


As for your potential vacuum leak, have you tried actually grabbing the carb (While the air filter box is removed) and trying to push/pull/monkey with it while the car is running? If messing with it effects your idle you may be lucky and just need to grab a 10MM wrench to tighten it down a little. I've had this problem at one point. Another way to check for vac leaks is to take a bottle of carb cleaner and give a little shot of it in different areas of your engine bay, your idle will bump up momentarily if you spray near a vacuum leak

As for your distributor, I recently rebuilt mine successfully and it's all pretty simple in there. As long as your centrifugal advance looks clean and it's well lubed I used (PB Bblaster or WD40 is obviously good) I would imagine you're OK. The only other thing I think you may worry about it that the stator and ???? (I can't think of what those tabs are called)...are straight,and not chewed up. If it rotates freely when it's re-assembled and If everything else is salvageable I'd just replace the cap and rotor and throw it back in. I will say that I highly doubt you'll find an exact fit replacement for that gasket between the cap and the distributor itself. I couldn't even find one from a Honda dealership. It IS just a seal anyhow so I just bought a multipurpose rubber ring/gasket, it still leaves a little gap near the clips that hold the cap on but it's sufficient to do the job.
So I guess I would just try the carb cleaner trick first to find any vacuum leaks.

Anyhow good luck and keep us posted on your progress!

I don't want to buy a new distributor until I eliminate the possibility that a vacuum leak is my real problem.

[atkin68]

Re: Installing the weber.
This is a great post from a friend of mine that explains everything. I did mine slightly different due to my unwillingess to cut my throttle cable (It's a long story why...) and I used a different setup for my throttle return spring.

http://www.preludepower.com/forums/s...d.php?t=347950


As for your potential vacuum leak, have you tried actually grabbing the carb (While the air filter box is removed) and trying to push/pull/monkey with it while the car is running? If messing with it effects your idle you may be lucky and just need to grab a 10MM wrench to tighten it down a little. I've had this problem at one point. Another way to check for vac leaks is to take a bottle of carb cleaner and give a little shot of it in different areas of your engine bay, your idle will bump up momentarily if you spray near a vacuum leak

As for your distributor, I recently rebuilt mine successfully and it's all pretty simple in there. As long as your centrifugal advance looks clean and it's well lubed I used (PB Bblaster or WD40 is obviously good) I would imagine you're OK. The only other thing I think you may worry about it that the stator and ???? (I can't think of what those tabs are called)...are straight,and not chewed up. If it rotates freely when it's re-assembled and If everything else is salvageable I'd just replace the cap and rotor and throw it back in. I will say that I highly doubt you'll find an exact fit replacement for that gasket between the cap and the distributor itself. I couldn't even find one from a Honda dealership. It IS just a seal anyhow so I just bought a multipurpose rubber ring/gasket, it still leaves a little gap near the clips that hold the cap on but it's sufficient to do the job.
So I guess I would just try the carb cleaner trick first to find any vacuum leaks.

Anyhow good luck and keep us posted on your progress!

Thanks Lostscociaguy. It's interesting what you said about pushing on the carb, cause a couple nights ago I was pushing down on the intake side of the air filter can and it lowered the idle when I did. Would climb back up again when I stopped pushing. But I had no idea what to think of that. I will take the filter can off and see if those 10mm bolts are loose. Planning to try the carb cleaner method as well.

The distributor is turning, but I'm questioning whether the centrifugal advance is working right cause things seemed pretty dry and gummed up inside. I'll give it a good cleaning and lube and try again.

Great input and I really appreciate it.

[lostscotiaguy]

The distributor is turning, but I'm questioning whether the centrifugal advance is working right cause things seemed pretty dry and gummed up inside.
Great input and I really appreciate it.

Re Gummed Up advance: Yeah, when I did mine (Which was kinda gummy as well) I just gave it some good shots of brake cleaner, and brushed it out a little before a few shots of PB Blaster. There IS a way to twist it/turn it that lets you check the "Advance action" and make sure the mechanism at least moves freely. I can't remember what the trick was, but I'm sure you've found it, or can figure it out easily enough.

As for vacuum leaks at the base of the carb, sounds like you found your culprit. Your idle will bump up if you start running lean, so it sounds like you've definitely got a leak there. As for my personal experience, my similar leak was a bit of a pain in the ass... Unfortunately it wasn't the seam between the carb and the manifold that was leaking, it was actually the seam that separates the top part of the carb from the bottom part. Sadly you need to remove the whole carb in order to get "Underneath it" to tighten the screws that hold the 2 halves (Top and bottom) together. With a little monkeying around you should be able to see if the whole carb is loose or whether it's just a leak between the 2 halves.
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you that it's between the carb and manifold. If it IS between the 2 halves the task of taking off the whole carb may seem a little daunting, but it's not TOO difficult if you take your time and really pay attention to how everything hooks together before diving in. PLUS, assuming you're not in Cali, things should be much easier:

http://imageshack.us/f/192/ihatekeihin.jpg/

As for helping? You're more than welcome to any advice I can provide... I'm glad to help in any way I can to help keep more old school Hondas on the road, plus I get to pay it forward. The great people on this site have been an awesome source of help to me (Shout out to Dr. Snooz!), and I'm just glad I can contribute to "the cause".

[chuck d]

sounds like a loose carb ... check that and then the floats, then even the fuel filters too.
and check this... https://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38161

[atkin68]

Re Gummed Up advance: Yeah, when I did mine (Which was kinda gummy as well) I just gave it some good shots of brake cleaner, and brushed it out a little before a few shots of PB Blaster. There IS a way to twist it/turn it that lets you check the "Advance action" and make sure the mechanism at least moves freely. I can't remember what the trick was, but I'm sure you've found it, or can figure it out easily enough.

As for vacuum leaks at the base of the carb, sounds like you found your culprit. Your idle will bump up if you start running lean, so it sounds like you've definitely got a leak there. As for my personal experience, my similar leak was a bit of a pain in the ass... Unfortunately it wasn't the seam between the carb and the manifold that was leaking, it was actually the seam that separates the top part of the carb from the bottom part. Sadly you need to remove the whole carb in order to get "Underneath it" to tighten the screws that hold the 2 halves (Top and bottom) together. With a little monkeying around you should be able to see if the whole carb is loose or whether it's just a leak between the 2 halves.
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you that it's between the carb and manifold. If it IS between the 2 halves the task of taking off the whole carb may seem a little daunting, but it's not TOO difficult if you take your time and really pay attention to how everything hooks together before diving in. PLUS, assuming you're not in Cali, things should be much easier:

http://imageshack.us/f/192/ihatekeihin.jpg/

As for helping? You're more than welcome to any advice I can provide... I'm glad to help in any way I can to help keep more old school Hondas on the road, plus I get to pay it forward. The great people on this site have been an awesome source of help to me (Shout out to Dr. Snooz!), and I'm just glad I can contribute to "the cause".

Boy I'm glad you posted this last post. I think you saved me some searching. I cleaned up the dist, and gave a suck on the vacuum advance with my lips and could see and feel it's working. I don't see any other missing parts, so I dropped it back in and the car starts. But it dies right away.

So, that was yesterday. This afternoon, just now actually, I took off the air cleaner, etc and started pushing on the carb. The play in it was even more pronounced without the air cleaner on top. Lots of play. So I'm looking for 10mm bolts and I see them, but there's no movement there. I've never looked at the carb before so I don't even really know what I'm looking at. But as I play with it and look around at different angles I find a really serious gap opening and closing as I play with it. I fire it up and spray some carb cleaner and you know what happened.

So I've found at least one big problem, and I expect it will turn out to be my big problem. But I can't see how to tighten it. So I come in here ready to start searching for tips online for what's going on, check this thread, and here's your post telling me exactly what I'm seeing. It's bad news but it's nice to know what it is and that someone else solved it.

I'm very daunted by diving into it, but I don't see any other option. If you can post some more detailed tips I'd be obliged. BTW, if your Honda is the one in your avatar pic, I believe we have the same car. 81 HB in blue. Love this car. Just rolled it over 300K a few weeks ago and I'm relieved that even though it sound like a difficult fix, it's not done for.

Thanks again and I'll let you know how it goes.

Dave

[lostscotiaguy]

The "Air Horn"/TOP Piece is mounted to the "Float Body" with 4 big Phillips-head screws, underneath. They go through the bottom piece and screw upwards into the top piece, forcing you to remove the whole carb to tighten them. This part of the fix is obviously the EASY part but of course just getting to it is a big f***in hassle.

As for removing the carb it looks tricky but it's not too bad. Remember to be careful with the fuel lines though! I'd try to do it all in one day, so you can put it back together while it's in all fresh in your head. You may want to pick up some extra vacuum hose "Just in case". I'd just take some good pics of each side before taking the hoses off, it should practically fall back together since most of the hoses will hold their shape.
Aside from a bunch of hoses the only other thing to hassle with is the Throttle cable, but it's pretty self explanatory.

Here's some random pics that may help:






Sorry it's sideways!

[Hazwan]

tf am i looking at hahahha

[lostforawhile]

tf am i looking at hahahha

underhood vacuum diagram

[atkin68]

haha! i'm looking all through the shop manual for detail that will help me reconnect everything after i start this and it's right there under the hood. thanks guys. other commitments today so i'll have to try and come home early from work monday or tues and block out the rest of my night to try and do this. i'm very grateful to have gotten your input and i'll let you know how it goes.

dave

[lostscotiaguy]

Hazwan: What you're looking at sums up one of the reason why I hate California Smog Laws!!! LMAO

Atkin: Yeah, please keep us posted on your progress! I don't know if you live in CA or not, but if you DON'T you will thankfully have a few less vacuum hoses to deal with. I may also post another pic or 2 on here later today. I moved over a month ago and I can't beleive I STILL haven't been able to dig out my Camera from anywhere. And yes, believe it or not, despite the fact that even my f***in DOG has one, I do NOT have a cell phone.... oh the shame!

I wish I did though, despite the fact that I'd still have almost no friends, I'd at least be able to post more pics for my fellow 1st Gen addicts!! LOL

[obdriver6]

He speaks the truth!
I partook of the quest to conquer the god "3Bbbl Keihin" and to make it submit to my will and do my bidding. It was an 8 year battle that left me scarred both mentally and financially. Ultimately when my valiant effort had reached it's ultimate zenith, and I thought I had victory within my grasp, it was ripped from my hands as the gods "Smog" and "Stoichiometry" openly mocked me and rendered my very soul from me. It was only then, within the bowels of a plane of hell called "The-damn-car-wont-even-run-AT-ALL-anymore" that I released the shackles that imprisoned me, and found solace in a NEW god. It's name was "Weber 32/36".
I have been reborn anew....and now my car finally f***in runs properly.

Sorry guys.... I gotta stop staying up so late...I get a little carried away.

Where's the "like" button when you need one! lol

[atkin68]

Well, a night of emotional extremes. I thought I had this solved after discovering a VERY significant vacuum leak getting some tips on how to solve it. Tonight I launched into the task of tightening the screws that hold the top and bottom section of the carb together from the bottom. Took lots of pics, printed out diagrams, thought it all through, and dove in. I was able to get access to the screws while disconnecting a minimum of hoses, etc., and it was not nearly as difficult as I expected. In the process, I discovered a couple of badly damaged hoses that I couldn't see till I had it all apart. I bought some new hose and replaced those, tightened down the loose screws (which were unbelievably loose), and felt a huge sense of anticipation as I put it all back together. I thought I was not only going to solve my chugging/backfiring/powerless problem under load, but really revolutionize the performance of my accord with all of those vacuum leaks discovered and repaired.

I fired it up, and it was terrible. Then, I noticed a hose I failed to reattach - whew. Fix it, fire it back up. Sounds ok, idle is better than before. Moment of truth, I get in and put it in gear and hit the gas - pathetic. Just like it can't breath at all. I've replaced the fuel filter, fuel pump, cap, rotor, wires, plugs, air filter, and now repaired three serious vacuum leaks around the carb, thoroughly cleaned and lubed the distributor, and while the car drives a little differently, I obviously still have not solved whatever catastrophic problem caused my car to suddenly start chugging while driving home early last week. I feel truly lost.

The other thing that happened that really worries me is that after letting it idle for a while it started to smoke from the engine compartment and also inside the cabin, apparently from the transmission. I don't know what that means. I'm worried I've destroyed my car.

I recorded a little video so you guys could hear the sound coming from the tail-pipe, cause it sounds really wrong but I don't know what it means. Thought it might drive some more ideas. I'm not sure how to get it posted so it may not be tonight. Thanks for everybody's help.

Dave

[Dr_Snooz]

Weber time.








No seriously, a lot of times what happens is that a small vacuum leak develops. The owner doesn't know what it is or care and the carb gets tweaked to compensate. As the leak gets worse, the adjustments continue until you have a carb that just won't run after the leak has been fixed. You might need to perform some minor carb adjustments to get it back into top form. Of course, on that carb, touching anything will bring the furies from hell's blackest depths swooping down to wreak their vengeance upon you. *Crossing self now*

Anyhoo, as far as I'm concerned, if your carb has site glasses on the side, then it's possible to rebuild it. I have. If it doesn't, just save yourself the time and money and throw it in the trash now.

[Dr_Snooz]

It's nice to know that all that time I spent in the driveway swearing and throwing tools trying to rebuild those cursed, infernal carbs gave me knowledge that is now helping others. LOL

[atkin68]

Weber time.








No seriously, a lot of times what happens is that a small vacuum leak develops. The owner doesn't know what it is or care and the carb gets tweaked to compensate. As the leak gets worse, the adjustments continue until you have a carb that just won't run after the leak has been fixed. You might need to perform some minor carb adjustments to get it back into top form. Of course, on that carb, touching anything will bring the furies from hell's blackest depths swooping down to wreak their vengeance upon you. *Crossing self now*

Anyhoo, as far as I'm concerned, if your carb has site glasses on the side, then it's possible to rebuild it. I have. If it doesn't, just save yourself the time and money and throw it in the trash now.

Thanks Dr. Snooz. The thing I'm struggling with is that the problems in my carb have obviously been there a long time. But the inoperable condition I encountered went from non existent to inoperable in just a few moments, maybe in an instant. So, especially after correcting those leaks, to have it behave essentially the same way, I just have a real doubt in my mind about whether the carb is what created the inoperable condition.

I'm also really concerned and puzzled by the smoke coming from the tranny and back of the engine after idling last night. That's never happened before and it happened immediately after I repaired the carb. Makes me think I put something together wrong. I don't know.

I do see the logic of what you're saying, and obviously I don't know what the hell I'm doing myself or I would have this car fixed by now. I'm going to poke around the exhaust system a bit, and double check that I reconnected everything correctly as next steps. Everyone's input is still greatly coveted.

Thanks,
Dave

[lostscotiaguy]

Weber time.


Of course, on that carb, touching anything will bring the furies from hell's blackest depths swooping down to wreak their vengeance upon you. *Crossing self now*

Hilarious and True.

[lostscotiaguy]

Oh, and I know it's a long shot, but have you tried redoing, or fiddling with your timing since replacing it? It maybe be a doubtful suspect but it's possible... especially considering how small the timing range is 2 Degrees off TDC (plus or minus).

Oh, related question: You run a weber right Snooz? Do you need to have your timing as retarded as possible? That's the only way mine seems to work properly and I'd seen mention somewhere of that being common, but I wanted to see if you had to do the same thing as I did.

[Dr_Snooz]

I'm FI, actually, so I can't help on the Weber questions.

Timing is a good thing to check. My guess is that the distributor seal needs to be changed. That could cause your transmission smoke. It's a few dollars from the dealer.

With my last Keihin, the car drove just fine. I fired it up one morning and headed out of the driveway to go to work and it stopped dead in the driveway. It happened just that fast.

[atkin68]

tonight i took the air cleaner off again just to look for mistakes. looked down the middle of the carb inadvertently and noticed something that didn't look right. i don't know what it should look like in there, but that black thingy looks wrong and looks to me like a gasket that maybe got out of place when the top and bottom were loose and is now pinched in there somehow. any thoughts?

Edit: sorry i don't know how to upload photos properly. if you right click the icons below you can open them.




thanks!
dave

[Dr_Snooz]

No pics?