4x100 Conversion Discussion

[2ndGenGuy]

I thought instead of hijacking Hazwan's 4x100 conversion thread, that I'd start new discussion here.

If you were going for 2g Prelude rear discs I'd go with the 2g Accord hubs (& maybe early 2g Prelude) just for the wheel studs, though I guess they could be pressed into either Hub before assembly?
Still surprised hubs/driveshafts were different for US for '81 but there had been hints of this in Hazwans earlier 4x100 query post where we found their part numbers differed in US online partbooks for that year & the experiences of others with swapping driveshafts on '81's.
But Honda can be inscrutable. I found that Honda's Quintet; the Preludes closest cousin, kept the old driveshafts into '82-4!

Yeah, I think the reason that they kept the smaller driveshafts, is because they kept the smaller engine. I bet that where Hazwan is, (Maybe you too) that the car came with a 1.6 through it's whole life, so they kept the same size splines. I think when we updated in the US to a 1.8, that we got hte bigger shafts. It's like the 2nd Gen Accord, when the SEi came out in 85, it used bigger shafts and bearings than the carbureted car, even though it was a lower production number. And that size wheel bearing carried on up into the 3rd gen.

I'm thinking that what I'm going to do now, is get the 82 Accord "Hub Repair Kit" that I found on Rock Auto. It uses the same wheel bearing, same spline count, same seals and everything as the 1st gen. The only difference is the hub. And it has wheel studs! And it's $45/side with the hubs, bearings and all the seals.

I took my 84 Accord stock axles to see just for shits and giggles in my 81 Hubs. Well the splines on the 81 go all the way back to the end of the stub, and the 84 splines only go about 3/4 of the way back. So the 84 Axles won't fit into the 81 hub, but it should work the other way around. So no matter which way the 82 hubs are configured, I believe that the 81 Axles should fit in, since they are fully splined.

[Hazwan]

My head exploded by just reading that.

[2ndGenGuy]

I'll include PICS to show what I mean!!

[2ndGenGuy]

Well, I'm waiting on my 82 hub kit to come in. In the mean time, I found some 2g Prelude discs at the wrecking yard. So I pulled every part down to the hubs, and started test fitting it.



Caliper bracket bolts right up.


And the wheel bearings fit right onto the stubs...


Except now I have a problem. The wheel bearing seals sit too far out on the hub, and they hit just before the inner wheel bearing seats itself. The 81 Accord seals sit flush with the hub, while the Prelude ones sit on top of the edge of the hub. So now I gotta figure out if I need to use different bearings, or try to find a different bearing seal...

[2ndGenGuy]

Well, all I can figure is that the base of the axle stub on the 81 Accord is just a TINY bit shorter than the Prelude. I took the caliper bracket off, and the seal barely clears the area where the backing plate bolts onto.

You can see here, how the Prelude's seal sits on top.


While the Accord's is flush.


The way I can see it, I have a few options.

1. Put a spacer behind the inner wheel bearing to space the rotor out just a touch.
2. Have a machinist bore out the center of the caliper bracket. Not such a great idea as it centers the bracket nicely.
3. Figure out a way to grind off that lip without ruining the seal...

[2ndGenGuy]

Well I cut off that lip on the seal. It's better, but still not perfect. Going to try to find a shim tomorrow that I can use...

[79cord]

Could you use the Accord seal?
I can't remember that difficulty but would have measured the stubaxle spindle to check they were the same. It shouldn't matter but my Prelude brakes may have been '83 & had ALB wheel sensor I left off.

[2ndGenGuy]

Crap. I was hoping you would have the definite solution

I tried the Accord seal. It's too big to fit inside the Prelude hub...

I'm going to try to find shims tomorrow. I need something with 30mm ID, about 3mm thick and about a 35mm OD. Wish me luck...

[Hazwan]

Interesting PICS (Y)

[Hazwan]

Fuck come to think of it, I honestly don't remember if I ever had any problems with my Civic drums clearance. I figured since they bolt right in they should work fml I gotta recheck.

[2ndGenGuy]

I only noticed it because when I tightened the spindle nut down, the rotor got hard to turn, but was still sloppy. It felt gummy. I'm sure you would have noticed.

[Hazwan]

Mine won't turn at all if I over tighten the nut, which is normal.. right? But they stay in there just fine, no sloppiness or whatsoever so I think I'm good. I might check them again just in case.

[79cord]

He had me wondering about my rear bearing fit as well, & they've been on the car YEARS...
Looking at online partbooks suggested that USA didn't get 2g Prelude with disc brakes until '85, & even then only on upper spec. "Si" but still without the ALB Australia had standard upon them since '83. UK Partbooks suggest the older ALB disc rotor and caliper brkts had different part numbers, though same bearings & seal, hub/stub-axle/spindle.
Don't know what that means though.

[2ndGenGuy]

Well I found some steel "machine bushings" that are just about the right diameter and about 1.5mm thick. So I'm going to try those, and then space out the caliper with a couple of washers to match the rotor, we will see how that goes this evening!

[2ndGenGuy]

Well I installed the shim tonight, I put it in behind the wheel seal.




It works fucking awesome! The seal clears now, and the rotor isn't even spaced out far enough to make much difference on the caliper bracket. It's nice and tight, spins freely without binding on the bearing seal.

Here it is with the caliper on it. I still have a couple of clearance issues on that now...



First is the lower bolt on the caliper to the slider is in the way of the lower control arm mounting bolt. I think I'll probably end up bolting that onto the caliper bracket before I mount the bracket.



The second thing is the e-brake cable bracket, it hits the strut. Luckily, I can cut that thing off (weight reduction!) since the e-brake cables don't come in from that direction anyways.



Plenty of clearance here from the rotor to caliper bracket!



And just for shits and giggles, here's the wheels I'm going to mount on the car...

[Hazwan]

Resize your pics noob.

[2ndGenGuy]

HA! I applied the resize like 6 times last night. Not sure why it's not working. I'll just reupit.

[2oodoor]

Those look good$
I was going to suggest another brand seal, Ive run in to that on trucks where the design of the seal was slightly differnt on the same app between brands.
Brilliant fix you came up with.

[79cord]

Yes that caliper bolt / lower wishbone bolt situation is a little aukward isn't it.. The Prelude guys complain about it too. My Accord has 15-16mm to fit that caliper bolt into giving 8-9mm clearance once they are all done up.
I really only ground a corner off that handbrake cable mounting for strut clearance.

I should poke my rear disc pictures in here too shouldn't I.


Two views from above of the custom handbrake actuator lever extension I made from an old drum brake actuator lever trimmed and extended towards the rear then drilled & tapped so it could bolt to the underside of the calipers handbrake cable mounting. This adapts the calipers fore-aft handbrake actuation to work with the Accords original transversely located handbrake cables but must also clear the rear strut as the handbrake is applied.
Clearances are tight, I wasn't convinced it would all fit then for ages I was worried I might need slightly longer handbrake cables & actually bought some 1g Prelude cables just in case (slightly wider rear track), but it all worked out OK.
Thus I retained my all Accord's original hand brake cables & layout. The alternative would have been to adapt the complete 2g Accord or Prelude fore-aft cable arrangement which would be a major pain as they had moved the cable adjustment & left/right side cable split into the cabin behind the handbrake lever; exactly where the '76-'80 Accords mount their frt seatbelt latches ('81's were relocated) so his change would be a major pain to accommodate.

[79cord]

15" wheel look huge don't they?
Amazing how much those wheels look like Hazwans old wheels, but just that little bit bigger!
I assume being Mazda wheels they need their centre-bore hole enlarged 1mm to match Honda's. I have bought some early MX-5/Miata 14" and MX-3 15" alloy wheels I should attack still...

[2ndGenGuy]

Those look good$
I was going to suggest another brand seal, Ive run in to that on trucks where the design of the seal was slightly differnt on the same app between brands.
Brilliant fix you came up with.

Thanks, yeah I was just glad it worked out! I tried some other brands, but they all looked the same. Last resort was to ream out the middle of the caliper brackets, which really probably wouldn't have hurt a thing, but this was much less work.

Yes that caliper bolt / lower wishbone bolt situation is a little aukward isn't it.. The Prelude guys complain about it too. My Accord has 15-16mm to fit that caliper bolt into giving 8-9mm clearance once they are all done up.
I really only ground a corner off that handbrake cable mounting for strut clearance.

...

Two views from above of the custom handbrake actuator lever extension I made from an old drum brake actuator lever trimmed and extended towards the rear then drilled & tapped so it could bolt to the underside of the calipers handbrake cable mounting. This adapts the calipers fore-aft handbrake actuation to work with the Accords original transversely located handbrake cables but must also clear the rear strut as the handbrake is applied.
Clearances are tight, I wasn't convinced it would all fit then for ages I was worried I might need slightly longer handbrake cables & actually bought some 1g Prelude cables just in case (slightly wider rear track), but it all worked out OK.
Thus I retained my all Accord's original hand brake cables & layout. The alternative would have been to adapt the complete 2g Accord or Prelude fore-aft cable arrangement which would be a major pain as they had moved the cable adjustment & left/right side cable split into the cabin behind the handbrake lever; exactly where the '76-'80 Accords mount their frt seatbelt latches ('81's were relocated) so his change would be a major pain to accommodate.

That's awesome. I saw those pics on CarDomain, but its good to have the larger ones on here, plus some detail how you did it. I'll probably copy your design. It's pretty much just what I was thinking about as I was taking them off the car at the yard.

15" wheel look huge don't they?
Amazing how much those wheels look like Hazwans old wheels, but just that little bit bigger!
I assume being Mazda wheels they need their centre-bore hole enlarged 1mm to match Honda's. I have bought some early MX-5/Miata 14" and MX-3 15" alloy wheels I should attack still...

I got a drum sander. So I think that I'm going to give it a go myself. If I mess it up too badly, I can always have a machine shop ream them out a bit bigger and make me some centering rings to bring the size back down. I figure it's only 1mm, how hard can it really be?

[2ndGenGuy]

Well, again, the parts that I expected to fit, did NOT. Since I had the rear wheels figured out, I went ahead and got my front hubs for the 82 Accord. They fit perfectly on the 81's axle shafts, but there is a small problem.

I don't know if you can tell by this picture or not, but the rear face of the 82 hub is actually quite a bit closer to the face of the knuckle.



So what happened when I tried to press it in?



It bottomed out on the knuckle before the hub seated against the bearing. So fuck.

So, I'm going to take a big fat risk, and grind off the face of the knuckle a few milimeters, and see if I can get the clearance that I need. I already fucked this wheel bearing, because I have to pull the hub out of it. This shit is getting expensive.

[1GCustomAccord]

The bearing will be ok if you remove it in a press.
Just curious: Can't you use a spacer to get the correct clearance?

[2ndGenGuy]

Yeah, I'm trying to figure out what to space out exactly...

I can't space out the bearing, because it's held in by a circlip. If it moves outward inside the spindle, it will cover the groove that holds the circlip in place.

I don't think I can put a spacer between the bearing and the hub, because then the outer wheel bearing seal may not sit.

Also, trying to find the right spacers that fit would be impossible. I'd have to have some made, I'm pretty sure.

Unless there's something I'm missing? I am pretty sure it's only like 2-3mm that needs to come off of the face of that spindle.

I'm in sort of a debacle right now, because the hub puller that goes on the end of my slide hammer doesn't fit the 4x100 lug pattern. So I can't pull the hub out. And I can't press the bearing out with the hub on it, because it's held in with the circlip... I used the slide hammer to take off the original hub, and it came out SO easily. I can only get 2 lugnuts on the puller with this new hub, and it's pulling at an angle, so it doesn't really wanna come out at all...

This is exactly what I need right here...


I have the slide hammer, but the auto parts store says they don't have the smaller end for the slide hammer. I don't think the guy on the phone knew what he was talking about. I'll have to walk over there in the morning and see what they've got.

[79cord]

Drat, sorry to hear of this problem. Another headache after we made it sound easy.
My car is using the 2nd gen Accord hubs, but having the earlier '76-'79 bolt-on bearing retainer I only had to countersink some new retaining bolts to clear the ends of the wheel studs. Amazing that you should have that problem when Honda used the same circlip retaining concept for 2g.. Now where did I put those old 2g hub carriers? I want to measure the circlip area now.