PROJECT , TURBO ( bobafett )

[bobafett]

It uses MAP, TPS and crank position as its main inputs. MAP and TPS is all it uses to determine load. Right now I only have the stock cam in there, but as I get the motor slightly more broken in I will probably throw a 282 on there. Or I might just jump to a cam that is optimal for turbo, even though I will be NA for a few months while I get comfortable tuning this thing.

I don't care if the idle is not ROCK solid. I am not expecting to have a good idle once I have 750cc injectors and a more radical cam. It would be nice to figure it out now though, because the better I get at dialing it in, the closer I will be able to get it later.

For now we have just been messing with IOT (injector offset timing) and TOG (time for one GAMA). I don't think we have messed with timing or the VE tables very much at all, but I think we may have pulled a bit of timing due to some lean part throttle spots.

Still have so much to learn it's unreal. Thanks for the tips though, that makes sense as a good way to tackle the idle and I will probably give it a shot next time I get a chance to work on it.

[87roach]

This is great!! Nice to see it running finally, sounds just wicked. Keep up the good work!

[Dr_Snooz]

That car is EVIL, brah. Heh heh!

I love it!

[cygnus x-1]

It uses MAP, TPS and crank position as its main inputs. MAP and TPS is all it uses to determine load. Right now I only have the stock cam in there, but as I get the motor slightly more broken in I will probably throw a 282 on there. Or I might just jump to a cam that is optimal for turbo, even though I will be NA for a few months while I get comfortable tuning this thing.

I don't care if the idle is not ROCK solid. I am not expecting to have a good idle once I have 750cc injectors and a more radical cam. It would be nice to figure it out now though, because the better I get at dialing it in, the closer I will be able to get it later.

For now we have just been messing with IOT (injector offset timing) and TOG (time for one GAMA). I don't think we have messed with timing or the VE tables very much at all, but I think we may have pulled a bit of timing due to some lean part throttle spots.

Still have so much to learn it's unreal. Thanks for the tips though, that makes sense as a good way to tackle the idle and I will probably give it a shot next time I get a chance to work on it.

Oh man, I spent SOOOOOO many hours just driving around tweaking stuff. It's really addictive after awhile! Getting the VE table right was pretty straightforward with a wideband sensor and data logging. You just drive around at various throttle positions and loads and adjust until you get what you want. Acceleration enrichment was much more difficult. Timing is probably the toughest, and I still don't have that exactly right. Drivability is good but I don't think it's right for maximum power.

I have no idea what GAMA is. Hehe.

C|

[bobafett]

Took it for it's very first spin on the road today...

Didn't get any tuning done because my datalogging didn't start recording like I thought it had, so I don't have any info from the trip.

However it ran pretty smooth with reasonable AFR's from what I saw while driving. I stabbed the throttle once and the car immediately choked out and almost died with a super rich AFR. So there is definitely some work to do. But the light throttle stuff felt almost like a normally drivable 'stock' car.

I have a lot of little things to fix before I want to drive it around much more, so for now I am confident in the fact that it can cruise around, but I have a lot more tidying up and preparing to do before I want to drive much more.

More updates to come...

[forrest89sei]

YAY!!!

[LiquidIC]

your car is gay.
electromotive is gay.
big late spooling turbos are gay.

[bobafett]

haha let me guess you want to check it out for yourself!

getting other things dialed in... got my tps calibrated properly - so now I don't get check engine lights constantly, started using tps/map blend to calm down my idle (now sits between 900-1100), got my rev limiter figured out, and took out some constant and coolant based fuel enrichment (so it doesn't run 9:1 at startup now). I slightly tweaked the IOT down a bit more, and didn't add any to the TOG but so far it seems okay.

I bled the brakes and got the steering wheel properly fixed, so once I get brake lights the car will be almost legal and safe to drive.

and yes all of the things you listed are VERY happy and good things! especially the car... it is very joyous and gay to be running again after so long.

[Zufer]

good deal... glad you are able to get the startup more reasonable. I knew that with some time it'd get better but we were just working on getting it running this weekend. glad to hear its all coming along nicely.

done anything with any wiring yet?

oh and good news... i know a lot more about how to tune my carbs after some reading. so once i get a wideband i'll be able to fine tune them pretty well i think. and i desperately need a rebuild.... it leaks out of every end like a siv!!!

[bobafett]

Next time you come up you should leave with my spare block and start getting it going. Shouldn't need much of an overbore to get it ready, it was in known great shape other than rings and valve guides leaking like crazy since it blew a lot of blue smoke.

Although I MAY want to keep the oil pan if it is not damaged so that I can have an extra to tap for oil return. I guess it depends on whether or not my oil pan actually leaks. So far it seems like my 'power steering' is the only thing leaking, I think I need to redo the hoses and loop them again instead of capping them all.

Also need to build a new overflow tank that I can actually mount somewhere. Something like this - http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Unive...m320267306502&

Still can't get WOT anywhere close but I will probably go cruise around in the evenings and get part throttle closer. I might try the EGO input to allow the ECU to just try to acheive the proper AFR but its only allow to modify +/- 8% of the pulse width so it won't go too crazy.

[guaynabo89]

your car is gay.
electromotive is gay.
big late spooling turbos are gay.

Is this an inside joke?

[bobafett]

Yeah this is one of my buddies who helped me wire up a lot of this car recently and has helped me out a lot working on the car over the years as it has progressed.

No worries... ;-)

[guaynabo89]

oh ok.

Just wanted to make sure.

(Oh and dont let javawhatsitshooset see that you posted the word gay.we'll have to go through that whole deal again)

[russiankid]

That thing sounds very nice. I wish my car sounded so nice. Keep up the good work!

[bobafett]

Thanks, its a little loud now since there is no interior - and only going to get louder lol I don't mind too much though to be honest.

[russiankid]

Thanks, its a little loud now since there is no interior - and only going to get louder lol I don't mind too much though to be honest.

Mine is quiet, sometimes I forget its running.

[cygnus x-1]

Still can't get WOT anywhere close but I will probably go cruise around in the evenings and get part throttle closer. I might try the EGO input to allow the ECU to just try to acheive the proper AFR but its only allow to modify +/- 8% of the pulse width so it won't go too crazy.

Have you not tried adjusting the VE table yet? That's the way it's usually done as I understand. And as it turns out (in may case at least) I don't actually need any O2 feedback at all. Once the VE table is dialed in, I use the AFR table to set whatever AFR I want depending on RPM and MAP. So if I want an AFR of 12.8:1 at 3500 RPM and 100kPa, that what I put in the table and that's what I get. The O2 sensor was used to dial in the VE table, but after that it's just an indicator.

But I have no idea how your ECU works, so YMMV.

C|

[bobafett]

Well I CAN choose to setup VE at this point, but their tuning guide recomends tweaking that after getting a few other things sorted out. Which I can't do at the moment since I can't get the software to datalog for me. Working on getting that resolved, then I will be able to take a closer look.

I am curious for what you are using for a timing table, because I imagine using what you have is going to be a lot closer than the generic 4 cylinder timing map that my software starts out with. 2ndGenGuy found a screenshot with some of your timing settings, but I didn't know if that was current or not.

I will get to the VE table soon, but with my software they say I shouldn't need more than 5-10% adjustments MAX, and I should be able to get the car most of the way there without it, but dial in max power etc by using that table.

My EGO correction also doesn't appear to be happening, but there was a lot of criteria that the engine has to meet before it will kick that in, so I probably have one of those settings off.

Still new to the game of course~

[cygnus x-1]

I was curious so I DL'd the manual for the TEC3 ECU (couldn't find the TEC GT). The overall control seems similar to MS but setup and tuning is different. One interesting thing is how they assume the engine fueling is linear based on load and RPM, so the VE table is more for trimming. In the MS world the VE table (and AFR table if you use separate tables) totally defines the fueling. So VE table tuning is critical. I can see the TEC style tuning method being easier to tune than the MS method. I'm definitely going to read more of that manual. Cool stuff.

My timing table works pretty well but it's not tuned for max power. Mostly because I'm too cheap to have it done on a proper dyno. I started with some Honda map that I forget now, and adjusted based on information from the MS forums and the ever popular butt dyno. So here's my current version:




You'll have to fill it in for the boost areas but this should get you started. I'm REALLY interested in any feedback on this table because I haven't been able to find ANY other examples of timing maps from an A engine. Obviously that's largely due to the fact that most people have mechanical distributors, but somebody has to have figured out an optimum timing setup for these engines. At least I would hope.

C|

Well I CAN choose to setup VE at this point, but their tuning guide recomends tweaking that after getting a few other things sorted out. Which I can't do at the moment since I can't get the software to datalog for me. Working on getting that resolved, then I will be able to take a closer look.

I am curious for what you are using for a timing table, because I imagine using what you have is going to be a lot closer than the generic 4 cylinder timing map that my software starts out with. 2ndGenGuy found a screenshot with some of your timing settings, but I didn't know if that was current or not.

I will get to the VE table soon, but with my software they say I shouldn't need more than 5-10% adjustments MAX, and I should be able to get the car most of the way there without it, but dial in max power etc by using that table.

My EGO correction also doesn't appear to be happening, but there was a lot of criteria that the engine has to meet before it will kick that in, so I probably have one of those settings off.

Still new to the game of course~

[bobafett]

TECgt - http://distributorless.com/products/tecgt.php
TECgt manual - http://electromotive-inc.com/pdf_fil...rs%20Guide.pdf

WintTEC4 - http://distributorless.com/products/wintec4.php
WinTEC4 Software - http://www.electromotive.us/products...C_v405B025.zip
WinTEC4 Guide - http://electromotive-inc.com/pdf_fil...rs%20Guide.pdf

I can email you my BIN file if you are interested in taking a look at what my car runs on, although the settings are certainly no close to done yet.

I figure that if our cars run 'okay' or even 'better' on a stock p75 obd1 ecu, we might be able to emulate their timing maps as a reasonable starting point. However I don't have info on those maps.

When I get home I may try shifting my timing and trying some of the values you have in there to see how it runs.

[bobafett]

Okay I grabbed some stock bins from xenocron.com for some stock setups and used crome to look at them.

Here is a D16Z1

mbar	114	230	345	461	576	692	808	905	981	1035
vac/bst	26.48"	23.06"	19.67"	16.26"	12.87"	9.45"	6.04"	3.18"	.94"	0.3 PSI
est kPa										
est kPa	11.4	23	34.5	46.1	57.6	69.2	80.8	90.5	98.1	103.5
500	16.5	16.5	16.5	10.5	5.75	1	-1.75	-5.5	-6	-6
547	16.5	16.5	16.5	10.5	5.75	1	-1.75	-5.5	-6	-6
648	16.5	16.5	16.5	10.5	5.75	1	-1.75	-5.5	-6	-6
734	16.5	16.5	16.5	10.5	5.75	1	-1.75	-5.5	-6	-6
805	16.5	16.5	16.5	10.5	5.75	1	-1.75	-5.5	-6	-6
898	16.5	16.5	16.5	11.5	5.75	1	-1.75	-5.5	-6	-6
1124	16.5	16.5	16.5	13	7	2.75	-1.75	-5.25	-6	-6
1484	18	18	18	14.75	9.75	6.25	0.75	-2.75	-6	-6
1769	18.5	18.5	18.5	16.25	12.25	9.5	5.5	2.5	-5	-5
2000	18.75	18.75	18.75	16.75	13.75	11	7.25	4.75	-3	-3
2312	19.5	19.5	19.5	17.5	14.75	11.75	9.25	4.75	0.5	0.5
2592	19.5	19.5	19.5	17.5	15.25	12.75	10.5	6.75	4	4
3000	19.5	19.5	19.5	16.5	15	13.75	12.25	8.75	7.25	7.25
3220	20	20	20	17	15.5	14.25	12.75	9.25	8	8
3592	21.75	21.75	21.75	19.75	17.75	16	11	10	9	9
4248	24	24	24	21.75	19.75	18	13.75	12.75	12	12
4560	27.75	27.75	27.75	25	22.25	20.5	15.75	14	13.25	13.25
5000	31.25	31.25	31.25	28.25	24.75	22.75	17.5	15.25	14.25	14.25
6064	31.25	31.25	31.25	28.25	24.75	22.75	17.5	15.25	14.25	14.25
7936	31.25	31.25	31.25	28.25	24.75	22.75	17.5	15.25	14.25	14.25

Here is stock P75

mbar	114	201	288	403	576	750	865	923	981	1035
vac/bst	26.48"	23.91"	21.35"	17.96"	12.87"	7.75"	4.36"	2.65"	0.94"	0.3 psi
est kPa										
est kPa	11.4	20.1	28.8	40.3	57.6	75	86.5	92.3	98.1	103.5
500	16.5	16.5	16.5	16.5	10.25	3.5	-2.5	-5.25	-6	-6
703	16.5	16.5	16.5	16.5	11.25	5	-1	-3.75	-5.75	-6
797	16.5	16.5	16.5	16.5	12.25	6.25	-0.25	-2.75	-5	-6
1000	22	22	22	20	15.75	10.5	5	2	0	-1.75
1296	26.75	26.75	26.75	24.75	21	16.5	12.75	9.5	7.25	5.25
1500	29.75	29.75	29.75	27.75	24.25	19.75	16.5	13.25	11	9
1704	32.5	32.5	32.5	30.5	27	22	18.5	15.5	12.5	10.5
2000	36	36	36	33.75	30	24.25	21.75	19.25	16.25	14.25
2188	37.75	37.75	37.25	35	31	26.25	23	20	16.75	14.5
2500	40.25	40.25	39	36.75	32.5	27.5	24.5	21.25	17.75	15.25
2688	40.75	40.75	39.25	37	32.75	28	23.75	19.25	15.75	13.25
3000	40.75	40.75	39.25	37	33	29	25.5	20	16.75	14.25
3500	40.75	40.75	39.25	37	33.75	31.25	29.25	27.75	25.75	23.75
3812	40.75	40.75	39.25	37	34	32.25	30.5	29.25	27.75	26.5
4312	40.75	40.75	39.25	37	34.25	33	31	29.75	28.75	27.75
4466	40.5	40.5	39.25	37	34.25	33	31	29.75	28.75	27.75
5000	39.5	39.5	39.5	37.25	33.75	31.75	30	28.75	27.75	26.75
6000	41.75	41.75	41.75	39	35	33	31	29.75	28.75	27.75
7000	41.75	41.75	41.75	39	35	33	31	29.75	28.75	27.75
7936	41.75	41.75	41.75	39	35	33	31	29.75	28.75	27.75

Here is another LS Integra Map

mbar	114	201	288	403	576	750	865	923	981	1035
vac/bst	26.48"	23.91"	21.35"	17.96"	12.87"	7.75"	4.36"	2.65"	0.94"	0.3 psi
est kPa										
est kPa	11.4	20.1	28.8	40.3	57.6	75	86.5	92.3	98.1	103.5
500	16.5	16.5	16.5	16.5	10.25	3.5	-2.5	-5.25	-6	-6
703	16.5	16.5	16.5	16.5	11.25	5	-1	-3.75	-5.75	-6
797	16.5	16.5	16.5	16.5	12.25	6.25	-0.25	-2.75	-5	-6
1000	24	24	24	22	17.5	12.25	5.75	3.5	1	-1
1296	28.75	28.75	28.75	26.75	23	18.5	12.75	9.5	7.25	5.25
1500	31.75	31.75	31.75	29.75	26.25	21.75	16.5	13.25	11	9
1704	34.5	34.5	34.5	32.5	29	24	18.5	15.25	12.5	10.5
2000	38	38	38	35.75	32	26.25	19.5	16.25	15.5	14.5
2188	39.75	39.75	39.25	37	33	28.25	20.5	17.25	16	14.75
2500	42.25	42.25	41	38.75	34.5	29.25	21.5	19.5	17.75	15.5
2688	42.75	42.75	41.25	39	34.75	29.5	23.75	19.5	15.5	13.25
3000	42.75	42.75	41.25	39	35	30.5	26.5	20.5	16.75	14.25
3500	42.75	42.75	41.25	39	35.75	32.75	30.5	27.75	25.5	23.5
3812	42.75	42.75	41.25	39	36	34	31.75	29.75	28	26.25
4312	42.75	42.75	41.25	39	36.25	35	33	31.75	30.5	29.25
4466	42.5	42.5	41.25	39	36.25	35	33	31.75	30.5	29.25
5000	41.5	41.5	41.5	39.25	35.75	33.75	32	30.75	29.75	28.75
6000	43.75	43.75	43.75	41	37	35	33	31.75	30.75	29.75
7000	43.75	43.75	43.75	41	37	35	33	31.75	30.75	29.75
7936	43.75	43.75	43.75	41	37	35	33	31.75	30.75	29.75

[cygnus x-1]

The P75 table looks familiar. I think that's what I started with. But I remember at one point thinking that I was getting some pinging at WOT so I backed it way down. The problem I have is that for whatever reason my manifold (B18A1) makes this screeching sound and it's very hard to hear any pinging. I think I might make up a new table based around the P75 and see how it works again. When I went to the dragstrip a couple months ago my times were not quite as fast as I was expecting. Best time was 16.25s. So maybe I'm not running enough advance.

And thanks for the links. I'll check those out.

C|

[bobafett]

w00t got data logging working again. Turns out I am just a dumbass and was missing a step. Anyway now I should be able to get a chance to cruise around and begin tuning over the next few weeks.

No idea where to begin, but at least I can log my trips now!

[cygnus x-1]

Decided to do an experiment today to compare the timing map I posted with the P75 map. I did 2 full throttle pulls with each of the two maps on the same flat stretch of road. The data from MS were logged and the HP and torque calculated based on gear ratios and tire size using the MegaLogViewer program. The results showed that the P75 map was on average about 2-4 HP better than the map I was previously using, across the RPM band. Torque was up 3-5 lb-ft. Above 6000RPM HP was even better, at 4-6HP gain. There was no pinging either, so I would say the P75 map is good!

The engine also felt a little smoother revving with the P75 map. I did bump up the idle timing a little to help the idle but that's it.

C|

[bobafett]

Interesting, so you just ran an unmodified P75 ignition map?

It scared me jumping the timing values up so high so quickly, but I guess its not that bad to do after all. I figure an A20 is an A20 is an A20 as far as timing is concerned, I may convert my map to something like that as well.

Do you know why they have negative advance in some of the areas, that looks like flooring it under load at low rpm to prevent it from pinging, is that the right idea?

My map won't need so many rows below 1000 rpm since my car idles there. probably a 700rpm and a 1200rpm would be appropriate since I should be able to dial in the idle somewhere there

My idle kPa is like 45 though, so I will need to start at a different point in the map and hopefully just do linear interpolation to get the map dialed in close enough.

I wonder if the < 40 kPa columns are meant for off throttle decel or if integras naturally pull that much vacuum. I don't really know the full off throttle decel kPa values, but I know my map starts at 45kPa lol so I may need to tweak that area.

The other thing I wonder is if this timing is on top of the 'base timing' of 14 degrees that is setup in my software. I don't know what exactly that value does but I figure I can just throw a timing light on this thing and see what my actual idle timing is and see if it matches what is in the software.

Since I know what I was doing wrong with the data logging hopefully I can try this ignition map out and then get a chance to cruise around a bit with it.

Anyway thanks for the update on the P75 map, I may slowly shift mine towards those values and see how it goes!

Chris