PROJECT , TURBO ( bobafett )

[bobafett]

ok. i have decided to take the plunge.

however, i do have a few ground rules:

1. must be cheap, this is a very budget oriented project
2. must be reliable. making good power means nothing to me if i cannot drive the car


aside from that pretty much anything goes...

i will prolly be bugging you guys a LOT for info, but i need to have all my plans done before i start buying anything.

the loose plan right now is to build up a VERY low boost turbo set on the accord. i am talking 3-5psi.... because of this i should save a lot of money on "building" the engine and buying FMICs and shit...

what i would like to start planning now, are the mods i can do to my car while it is NA, that will help prepare me for a turbo project.

keeping in mind that all i care about is reliability. my first thought was to get guages going. if i have a a/f guage, and a boost gauge (measuring vaccum at the time being) it will give me good info when turbocharged.

also i thought that fixxing up my intake manifold (swapping to a 88-89, and doing the P&P job) would be smart.

also i was wondering if i would need a better fuel system with such a low boost application. bigger fuel pump, injectors? what would i need.

the main things i am concerned about taking care of first, are the preventitive mods... to keep the car safer, and have me not worry about it blowing up constantly.

PLEASE< i need a lot of help, and i know this wont be an overnight project, but hopefully i can finish in within 1 year, and give hope to everyone else on here about a small little turbo setup that adds maybe 25-55 HP.... that would ideally be extremely buildable, but this is a safe starting point i would hope!

thoughts please?

[quagmire]

I dunno if you'll want to do this, but I like the Exhaust Gas Temp guage (pyrometer) better than the AF ratio gauge. Probably because I'm an anal retentive engineering student and like to have numbers attached to everything, plus the AF guage seems like sometimes it just bounces around and doesn't seem to do much more than look cool. Just my $.02.
A good porting job will benfit you now and after the turbo is operational. I'm not sure a swap to the 88-89 intake would help you very much, but porting yours probably would. As far as reliability, all i can say is fuel mangement. Someone more familiar with the 3g's fuel system will have to elaborate, but that area is key. Going lean is a sure-fire way of blowing your motor. Then again, thats what the pyrometer or AF meter is there for.



Once you finish the project, you can make some $$ back by selling that DC header.

[bobafett]

hehehe... yeah thats what i figured!!! lol...

well i am all for gauges, i love them... so the more i have (that ARE useful) the better.

my grandfather turbo's all of his trucks, and he's got a pyrometer instead of an A/F guage... his lil isuzu truck is still going too!!! after like 20yrs!!!

when you say fuel management, what are you talking about (in general terms, not nesicarily 3geez terms). is this like a haltech, or a afc controller?

the more gadgets and gauges i need the better, except that they will get spendy.

and is there no way to salvage my dc sports headers for the turbo...??? lol... jk.

[quagmire]

I dont have a lot of knowledge about this, but I imagine some sort of AFC, with maybe ignition control too. Dont know of any specific brand or anything, havent really researched it. Anyone else have any ideas?

By the way, I'm thinking about doing this myself. When I go back home this weekend, I'll look at what my friend has in his garage and then look at his turbo civic and see what I'll need exactly for my car.

[mugenprelude86]

hey man i might want that DC headder off you after... it should fit my 2.0 si 86 lude right??? sorry i am on the accord site but hey you guys have WICKED info on our engines!

[bobafett]

hehe.... everyone will want the header when i am done... realistically it will be a while, and i am not gonna get rid of the header until i KNOW the car will be turboed long term! lol...

[gr3k0sLaV]

Ok from what i've managed to learn about turbo'ing the honda, cheaply.

Firstly i'd recommend visitng www.homemadeturbo.com

go here-
http://www.homemadeturbo.com/faq.html


Secondly, firstly, you want to keep your motor mainly stock. I'd recommend though upgraded and replacing gaskets, strongner/newer gaskets.

Port and polish of the head and all that.

Secondly, deciding on the turbo you want, if you want to run high boost/low boost. In your case low boost, prolly want a fast spooling turbo, something small. Forget the particular type, something small like TD04 or maybe a T25.

Next cost is the Turbo manifold, now the most practical route to go would be getting a custom manifold made which can be expensive, in australian dollars around $600 or so, in US dollars about $600-800, speak to Justin. Unless your good with welding, another option i've looked at is adapted the factory manifold which could be done, take a bit of engineering, it would be cheaper than getting a custom manifold made though. I've taken a rough look, mentally sketched it. So yer can't see why not.

Then there's piping the turbo, oil return, cooling, that's pretty basic.

NEXT though engine management, now depends on how much boost you want to run though. Low low boost 5psi or so, the stock injectors, FPR, should be able to handle it, but from my studying an intercooler would be recommended. I'd say upgrade the Fuel Injectors and install a rising rate FPR. The stock fuel pump can handle all that. Ignition timing should be retarded a bit, however it would be better to install an afttermarket ignion, MSD 6Al or something, put colder spark plug and I think decrease the gaps.

NExt in regard to engine managment, from my studies you have to trick the Honda MAP sensor that there is no boost, no correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't the MAP sensor get an air pressure reading or soemthing by measuring intake manifold vacuum or something. Now here the use of trick valves or something would be used to let out air, or let in air, to trick the MAP sensors there is no boost, which would cause the ECU to do funny things.

Next if you an Auto or Manual transmission, Manual people (which im not) would have an easier time, Auto people, well I think a Torque converter with a high stall speed would be a must or else turbo lag would be a major issue.

Gauges Oil pressure, AF, Boost gauge, a must. A boost gauge so you know how the hell high your boost is, and you dont overboost and well BOOOOM!.

ANyone feel free to correct me if i'm wrong, and add. Because I want to know too.

[gr3k0sLaV]

http://www.homemadeturbo.com/CheckValve.html <== solution to the MAP sensor problem

[MoonScryer]

Couple things to think about: If you are going low boost, you won't need heavy engine management. a Rising rate FPR, good fuel pump, etc. For the ignition, consider a MSD BTM system, it retards timing at boost. Other than that, i think a turbo timer would be a good idea, if you run the car hard. JC whitney has the old style but still just fine Greddy unit for $100.

As to the manifold and piping, yes, it can cost $600-800 for the manifold. How does $350 sound though? http://www.jgstools.com/turbo/custthdr.html

Someone brought that up before. No, it's not an equal length unit, or something specialized, but a log style should be fine for the low boost you are wanting to do.

Also, you go higher that 7psi? You will blow your ring landings. Save for forged pistons.

[bobafett]

now were getting somewhere! thanks for the posts, this is what i want.

as far as the manifold, 87hybrid is gonna help me out, and he can weld like a mofo! hopefully it wont be too expensive doing it this way.

as far as the turbo, i was thinking of snagging a t25 off of someones old dsm. also the 1g BOV's are supposed to be pretty good. what other turbo parts can i scrounge from a DSM?

i WAS thinking of adding a subie style intercooler cooled thru a hood scoop. placing the intercooler back by the old air box. i am sure there are some flaws with this logic, but i bet something could be planned!

my "goal" is 15.00 ET... i have no idea what it will take to get there, but i am talking about running practically as little boost as possible. basically just get my car on a turbo platform, so that i can slowly build up the motor and engine managment stuff while gradually increasing boost as it is SAFE. emphasis on SAFE!

moonscryer, were you saying that i could get away with stock everything (engine wise) as long as i bought an msd and better coil? i was a little unclear...

what is the lowest ammount of boost you CAN run with a lil t25? also i have a 5speed, so i torque converter will not be necesary.

how much HP would i gain from the "safe" level of boost, and what would that safe level be? i have <5psi in my head right now, but i need to know if this is realistic. i want to get away with little to no heavy duty engine management stuff, at least right now, even if it means only 1-2psi...

ok now a rice question. will the beloved BOV sound be just as loud with 1psi as it would with 25psi? lol, sorry to ask such a bad question, i just want to know if i can look forward to hearing my favorite sound, even on such a low boost application.

[gr3k0sLaV]

aim for 5psi, you can get away with that still.

Also as I said, check out the link for the little device that tricks the MAP sensor which saves the use of trick valves, etc,etc,etc.

Also moonscryer, if the MAP sensor is tricked that there is no increased boost, then how would the ECU know to increase the amount of fuel running to the engine? or is that handled by the O2 sensor?

Or is it just in adjusting the FPR?

[gr3k0sLaV]

Just a question, how does the MSD BTM system retard timing at boost?

Isn't timing controlled by the ecu which controls the vaccuum?

[Neuspeed87lx]

juuuustin

[gr3k0sLaV]

also, these might be of interest to some of you -

http://www.vpwmailorder.com/asp/prod...ub_cat_id=1454

Prices are in australian dollars though,

also with the Turbo Timer, I can get a kit for about $25 AU and build it myself.
Also with the intercooler, your best off putting it in your front bumper, it'd take a bit of custom work, cutting and shit but it'd prolly be a better idea.

www.homemadeturbo.com look around, there is mention of an AUDI intercooler been used I read, hmmm I think the 94 Toyota MR2 Turbo's have really small intercoolers, I think. My cousin has one, and im certain there was a small intercooler in there.

Wouldnt be smart to mount it behind the air filter, I think due to engine heat unless you can engineer some kind of good hood scoop for it, or you can mount it right above the engine itself, like on skyline engines and others, prolly be easier.

[gr3k0sLaV]

http://ludespeed.com/products/prelud.../install2.html <=== very very informative.

[bobafett]

thanks for all these links man... yeah i am thinking that if i DO end up with an intercooler FMIC is the way to go... though it might be nicer if i had a kit front with a wide open spot for an intercooler to show thru. then again, i think just proves that you dont NEEEED to.

ok, lets set a tenative goal of 5 psi. first off, what will i need to make sure its PERFECTLY safe. will i need the adjustable FPR and bigger injectors and MSD ignition? i assume the prices on these arent toooooo rediculous!

[gr3k0sLaV]

yer, 5psi is a good idea, i'd push it to 6 when you got it all tuned and readied.

As for all that stuff, i'd say a few hundred at the very least.

[gr3k0sLaV]

FPR, best i hear is Vortech Rising Rate, i think they are like $150 or something US, I think.

I'd say speak to Justin turbo accord about getting his fuel rail with that stuff that'd be a better idea.

I'm going to start seriously considering a project like this but not for a while, i'd need to do a shitload of research, but if all goes to plan I might buy a 2nd car, a 91 Nissan Silvia and use my accord as my project car...

[bobafett]

heh... good luck with the silvia, that would be awesome!

yeah i am gonna research the hell out of this before i buy anything... but i am 75% sure i will follow thru with the project, unless any unforseen financial issues pop up!

[Sean]

well i have a engine management system that will work but youll need to invest in some equipment. or maybe by the time your ready i will have some proggys worked out for all the various combos

[jteuton]

Hey your in my boat. Maybe we can help each other here cause we have similiar ideas. A little boost and a bit more power without breaking the bank. What I've gathered so far. I was told by Turbonetics that the T-25 was way too small and they would go with the T-3. However that is just one of the sales reps opinion. I also think we should run an inline fuel pump besides the stocker to give more reliablility. You need an adjustable FPR in addition to the FMU 12:1. The FMU is plumbed after the FPR. I think stock injectors will be fine unless extremely old and dirty and leaking. The MSD system is a Boost Timin Master. It retards timing as you see more Boost however I don't know if it can be used with your stock ignition or it has to be aftermarket. The BTM is 200 bucks alone......but then if you need an aftermarket ignition amplifier too that is another 200 so I hope it works with the Accel coil and stock ignition. The Manifold looks like the hardest part besides plumbing the oil lines. The stock Manifold *might* work but I don't see an easy way of welding the turbo flange to it to flow good. Has anybody looked at welding the T-25/T-3 flange on the stock manifold? You also will need a custom downpipe unless you are lucky like a bitch and can find one off a civic that curves just right. You will also need 150-200 dollar BOV. Intercooler isn't needed but the power will be hurt badly by the HOT air temps. All the ducting and silicone connectors and clamps will cost even more. Stuff to do before hand that helps is ......tuneup.....new sparkplugs and wires for sure. YOu can go ahead and get the FPR and extra pump and put them on. You could mount the intercooler and shit. I also have a DC sports header and I was looking at a way about modifiying that but it looks impossible. I was also thinking of going supercharger for two hugh benefits. 1. No custom expensive manifold/downpipe replacement 2. No plumbing of oil lines (self contained units). I looked and after removing the a/c there looks like a nice spot to mount to the block and run off a belt. You could really get away without an intercooler cause it won't be so close to the exhaust......then I ran into a problem.....Finding one that will work on a Honda which the gear turns CCW. Vortech makes one but you have to plumb oil to it too. Paxton's are trash cause they use this stupid bearing design over gears like Vortech's do. I seemed I found my answer when I found ATI and Powerdyne. Powerdyne's are driven with a little internal belt that lasts 100k miles and are superquiet and effecient.....however they don't have any application for Hondas so I assume they don't have one that the gears spin ccw. Lemme know your comment on everything I've gathered.

[bobafett]

well yeah i think we ARE in the same boat more or less. as far as the t25, i am sure its sufficient, espeically for the low levels of boost we are talking about. i know mitsu's run a hell of a lot more than 5psi on them. if we score a DSM turbo for a good price, there is no reason we couldnt snag up some of the pipes and the BOV (1G bovs are pretty good actually). this should considerably reduce costs. as for the BTM needing a seperate ignition system, i sure hope not. from the other stuff i was reading i didnt get that impression, but it sounds like valid logic. thats something we will need to investigate.

funstick, what do you mean exactly when you say i might need to invest in some equipment. also by various options do you just mean some sort of GUI to tune with? if all i need is C++/VB access i have that covered. from what you have read in this thread would your "product" work well?

as for an intercooler, i think we could salvage one at a junkyard for next to nothing. if you look at some of the links hat gr3koslav posted it seems pretty hopeful. are you suggesting that if we got an intercooler it would help a lot, even at boost levels under 5psi?

lets keep this discussion going as long as possible, so we have a solid plan before we jump into anything.

thanks for your input so far everyone!

[gr3k0sLaV]

ill make this post brief because I just woke up, im tired and cant bebothered writing much umm programming is usally done in Assembly, low level languages, or it's all done in HEX...can't remember exactly which.


WIth the ignition it would be a full upgrade to the system, MSD control unit, perhaps MSD coil although im certain that the ACCEL will work fine.

[Sean]

this is working in hex with a hex editor that translates hex values into real world values. i have some stuff i touched up that i can send out with any hardwrae you may want. the beauty of it is the datalogging ability the GM diagnosing capabilitys. you would need an eprom programmer at the least and a good cheap laptop for scanning. i plan to have a programmed plug in efi option soon. its still gonna be december before it meets OEM styel driveabiltiy however. plus i have to locate the various parts cheap not an easy thing to do.so give me some time and i will have it all worked out soon enough.my end goal is still factory emisiosns compliance and factory driveability. it may not be exactly emisions legal but it will sniff clean.

[bobafett]

hehe where i live there is no such thing as emmisions control!

i am not in a huge rush obviously, but i am still interested. if i were to use your chip, and want to tune it. would i need an EPROM programmer, AND a laptop? also would tuning be cryptic at this point. or would it be thru a cool interface?

sounds like this could be a good thing though!