rack and pinion and front end question

[HondaG]

Hey guys. I'm new here and posted in the newbie intro section yesterday.
My mechanic has recently replaced the rack and pinion on my recently purchased 87 Accord LX which only has a hair over 80k. When I drove it for the first time I was very impressed with the precision of the steering and suspension. I never owned a Honda before and I just thought it was amazing for a 25 year old car. Anyway, after a weeks worth of driving to and from work I stopped at a supermarket and had to turn my wheel all the way right till it hit its locked position then backed up and I felt the steering fighting me. As I backed up I saw ps fluid on the pavement......Damn I was bummed out.
So the mechanic said he would replace it on his dime. I deliver parts to him and he is an account of my job. Guess it was goodwill etc. Anyway, he replaced it. I then took it to get an alignment. The shop I took it to said I need two upper control arms and couldnt do it without them. So now I'm going to let one of the mechanics at the place I work look at it and see what it needs and do the alignment here instead.
The thing is......before the rack leak this car felt fantastic....steering, handling....the way the front suspension felt going over bumps etc. Now after the rack replacement it feels different.....jiggles over bumps, some jiggles sounds etc. Which bums me out. I know it may need upper control arms and the alignment but it now bugs me. Nde
So I'm asking you guys what me and my mechanic should be looking for as well while we have it up on the lift? Especially since its an older car. I just want it to feel as good as it was before.
Thanks
Sorry for making it long and drawn out.

[HondaG]

Also, I'm not a mechanic myself. I can tinker around but thats about it for now. I may ask some boneheaded questions so please forgive me if I do.

[Dr_Snooz]

The best thing you can do is learn to do your own wrenching. Get a basic tool kit, buy a manual (the silver Honda manual, not any other) and start by doing your own oil changes and move up from there. If you don't want to work on it yourself, then find a mechanic you trust and do what he tells you. The front upper control arms are a common failure item on these cars and will cause the symptoms you describe. It's impossible to do an accurate alignment if they are bad and any reputable shop will refuse the repair until they are fixed. Also, your rack will last a lot longer if you use Honda fluid consistently.

[nswst8]

The reason that the rack failed is that the mechanic did not properly flush the system after installing the new rack.

1. Lift the car so that the wheels move freely.

2. Detach the upper P/S reservoir hose and put a vinyl cover over the nipple.

3. Attach a vinyl extended drain hose to the P/S reservoir hose.

4. Start the car and turning the steering wheel full left and full right. Until all fluid is expelled

5. As the car is running and turn steering wheel add a quart of Honda power steering fluid. ( Oreilly's brand is what I use)

Repeat this untill the fluid is clear and you are absolutely sure that the only fluid left in the system is Honda power steering.

When they rebuild these racks they put anything from ATF, to seal preservative until they are installed and flushed.

I replaced 4 racks on my car in three weeks. When I finally read the Honda OEM service manual on flushing the power steering rack. It finally started operating properly.

The stated procedure is right out of the Honda manual.

Once you disconnect the suspension in replacing the rack. It is difficult to get it back to pre-rack replacement without replacing bushing in the lower control arms.

The upper control arms are a simple replacement.

[POS carb]

He may have left something loose or the problem could be unrelated. jack up the car and shake the wheels around, look for play, listen for clicks or creaks. The rack bushings may also be toast, they are difficult to find replacements

[HondaG]

You guys are terrific. Thanks for pointing things out.
@nswst8......I just re-read my post. My post sounds like the rack failure happened after the replacement was installed. Actually, when I bought the car from that mechanic two weeks ago it was the original rack that failed. Then it was replaced with the one I was talking about....this is when it started feeling jiggly.
The car rode great wiith the original rack in it, until it went south.....a week after I got it. Geez.
I just checked my ps fluid and its NOT clear....its reddish....so now I'm thinking he either put the wrong fluid in it (not Honda) or it mixed with whatever was already in the replacement rack.
Sooooo, now when I get the car on the lift for the other stuff (upper control arms etc) I will have to flush the ps system right? And put in Honda fluid!
All of you guys....thanks for helping out....keep it coming. :-)
This car is so nice I just want to do it all the right way and minimize headaches.

[nswst8]

STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You must replace that power steering fluid immediately. Honda power steering fluid is "CLEAR" not redish. The system has not been flushed. That rack will "FAIL" if you continue to drive it. Damage is being done everytime you drive it.

Goto Home depot and get some 3/8" clear vinyl tubing in the plumbing section.

Again, your rack will fail with that ATF (Automatic Transmission Fluid) in your power steering system!

Not sure if you have a Oreilly's autoparts store in your area but that is the Honda fluid that I use.

[HondaG]

I'm going to get on it ASAP. Going to head over to Honda tomorrow and pick some up.
The screwed up thing is that I ask that mechanic if he wanted me to get the Honda fluid for him and he said he had it. I had no reason not to believe him at the time as his shop works on honda, acura, benz, bentley, maserati, toyota etc. You would think they know right? Geez.
Thanks for telling me how critical it is.
Now I'm starting to wonder if they put non honda fluid in it before and the original rack got screwed up because of it and all of this could have been avoided from the start.
Now I can see how a perfectly good Honda can get screwed up by not doing just the simple stuff.......like putting in the right fluids etc. It's all so simple and can be avoided.
Now you got me wondering about my tranny fluid too. Geez :-/

[HondaG]

[HondaG]

[HondaG]

[HondaG]

[HondaG]

Thought I'd post some pix. As you can see its in good shape. The funny thing is I was just looking for any old cheap car just to commute back and forth to work. Everything I was looking at was bad. I stumbled on this at that repair shop as he was selling it for a woman who could not drive anymore. She was the second owner since 1989. I think I did good. I wasn't really looking for a Honda either. Now I'm hooked and want to maintain and get it running perfect as possible. I'm now a Honda 3geez fan :-)

[Dr_Snooz]

The screwed up thing is that I ask that mechanic if he wanted me to get the Honda fluid for him and he said he had it. I had no reason not to believe him at the time as his shop works on honda, acura, benz, bentley, maserati, toyota etc. You would think they know right? Geez.

This is why you want to move "learning to do my own wrenching" to the top of your bucket list. The shop will always break your heart, especially when the car is older. You have a beautiful car and you want it to stay that way.

@nswst8, I remember you going through a lot of racks a while back. Did you ever have any Honda fluid at all in the racks that went bad? I've never been clear whether it's having the wrong fluid in the rack or mixing the fluids that causes seal failure.

[HondaG]

Thanks for all the help.
I was wondering if that "turkey baster" method of flushing the ps system would work just as well as the method from the manual. Seems like two different ways to get the same outcome?

[nswst8]

This is why you want to move "learning to do my own wrenching" to the top of your bucket list. The shop will always break your heart, especially when the car is older. You have a beautiful car and you want it to stay that way.

@nswst8, I remember you going through a lot of racks a while back. Did you ever have any Honda fluid at all in the racks that went bad? I've never been clear whether it's having the wrong fluid in the rack or mixing the fluids that causes seal failure.

The problem was not completely flushing the system. The solution was running the engine to flush the system.

[nswst8]

Thanks for all the help.
I was wondering if that "turkey baster" method of flushing the ps system would work just as well as the method from the manual. Seems like two different ways to get the same outcome?

"Nope" The car must be running so that the P/S pump can fulling discharge the fluid from the rack. You must disconnect the top fluid discharge line at the reservoir. It is really very simple.

You really don't need to jack up the front of the vehicle, it just makes turning the steering wheel easier.

You can use any type of catch container to capture the old fluid. A 3/8 vinyl hose works great. It fits right into the discharge hose. So that you can direct it into a catch container.

The fluids are not compatible, it's like oil and water. they don't mix and create alot of problems.

My racks failed in a matter of days until I used the discribed method. I can change a rack in these cars in about 2 hours now.

[nswst8]

With a 80,000 mile accord that car will last you another 10 years with just regular maintenance.

[HondaG]

You guys don't realize how helpful you are. Gonna head to home depot later. Then over to Honda for the fluid.
I'm at work today and I've been asking various mechanics at shops.......just for the fun of it.......about using Honda ps fluid. Three so far said it makes no difference. That is scarry! Geez!

[Dr_Snooz]

Three so far said it makes no difference. That is scarry! Geez!

Our experience here is that the wrong fluid will cause seal leaks.

[nswst8]

I have owned this 89 accord since 1994, the only reason I changed out the original rack was because of a small leak in the original rack. I will tell you after the number of racks that I put in it in this past year 1 a year ago and the other 3 in a three week period. It is because of the wrong fluid that these racks fail.

They must be flushed correctly. Engine running, fully left and right turning of the steering wheel so that the P/S pump can push out all the fluid.

[import racer]

Nice looking car man,I always buy the Bardall stuff for honda's only and works great.

[Vanilla Sky]

Don't use the Napa Honda fluid. It kills racks, too. Stay away from anything with a strong solvent smell.

[Dr_Snooz]

Napa's crap strikes again.

Where are we buying our parts from now guys?

[MessyHonda]

I been using Acura OEM fluid with no leaks. its the same as Honda fluid