Water vapor injection project

[Buzo]

Once again I thank the Honda Engineers that designed the systems of the carbed cars.
Special thanks for the hot air source in the exhaust manifold.
As I have documented here in this forum, not using that hot air source during winter can reduce the fuel economy in 15-20%.

The next project is based in all my reading over internet about ways to improve fuel economy, increase power or both. We'll see.
We all should be more or less familiar with the Water Injection concept. If not, anybody interested can google search and find lots of information.

Did read similar thing but they use already vaporized water and I said "this is something I can implement pretty quick in my car" since:

I have the windshield washer motor and water tank.
I have the hot air source working properly
I have a controller that can automatically trigger the water injection at any given condition.

The plan is to inject the water into the exhaust manifold (near the O2 sensor location), and collect the vapor generated through the hot air hose.
I can add a PWM controller to the little pump of the windshield washer, proportional to the engine RPM or TPS or whatever.
I am already controlling the hot/cold air door in the filter case if I ever need to mix vapor and ambient air.

In summary, its just a matter to connect one hose (and a nozzle) from the windshield washer tank to the air heater and wire a SW to the cabin to trigger the water pump at my convenience and start getting some initial parameters.

[Legend_master]

buzo your projects make us all look lazy lol. Good luck, and hoping for great results!

[Vanilla Sky]

You are running MS, right? MS3 Extra and MS Extra can control water injection, and I believe MS2 Extra can as well.

Keep in mind that the washer fluid pump is a low duty cycle pump. I would look into a real pump and tank setup for WI.

[2oodoor]

buzo your projects make us all look lazy lol. Good luck, and hoping for great results!

This

[Dr_Snooz]

Buzo, you so amazingly rock! This is another project on my someday wish list. I can't wait to see how you make it happen. Is this a replacement for, or an addition to the gas vaporization experiment?

Edit: nvm, I just saw the other thread. So exciting!

[Vanilla Sky]

What are your MPG goals? Where are you now with that?

[Hazwan]

Subscribed (Y)

I love all your crazy projects!

[Buzo]

Thanks for your replies and nice comments!

Today I completed all the material list. I am going to use some medical stuff in my project.
When you get a blood transfusion or something, they put a hose and a needle in your hand and they regulate the flow with a small valve in the hose and by looking at the number of drops falling into a little bucket at the bottom of the blood bag. (Sorry, don't know the English names of this stuff).

I am going to use the same method for my water/vapor/steam injection system. I made a venturi to be inserted in the hot air hose, as close of the exhaust manifold as possible. The medical hose will be connected to the suction port of the venturi. I will fill the plastic bag with water and will be controlling the number of drops per second as the water is suctioned by the hot air pulled by the engine.

Since this air is pretty hot (>100 degrees C), the small drops of water will get vaporized while traveling through the hose to the filter case. But also I still have the heaters in the base of the carb for a complete vaporization.

My fuel economy goal is 50 to 60 MPG. Just the same as the hybrid cars running out there.

I should be able to run the first test today.

[Buzo]

[Buzo]

Ran a test last night.

Tested my venturi design in the bench using my hot air gun as air flow source, and I saw more water flowing due to the gravity alone than the water pulled by the vacuum. So the venturi must be redesigned until I get enough suction force to overcome the gravity force. My water tank must be below the level of the inlet port in the venturi to avoid water to keep flowing when the engine is off.

But I didn't stop. I connected the water hose to a vacuum port in the base of the TBI, - before the electric heaters - and started the car.
Found that I can control the water flow to the engine in a very precise way with this "medical" method.

If I lean the mix out a little bit, just to get my engine speed to oscillate, and then I open the water source, I can stabilize the oscillation. (The other way to stabilize the oscillation is to add fuel! Do you know what I mean?)

If I keep opening the water source I can make the engine to stall.

So its good to know that the hose diameters and everything is in the range to affect the engine performance.

Sorry didn't bring my cell's USB cable, so I owe you some pics of the set up.

[Buzo]

While I finish the new venturi, I used the canister port in the base of the TBI to suck water and then being converted to vapor by the heaters.
The big difference between injecting through this port and injecting though the standard MAP port is that the canister port increases the vacuum as the engine accelerates (due to the venturi of the air passage) and the MAP port decreases the vacuum with the engine speed.

In the picture you can see the medical system I've been talking about, I can measure the qty of water being sucked and I can adjust the flow with the blue valve, everything from the warm inside of the cabin.



I need to connect a hose from the graduated glass to the bottle of water for an automatic refill. I ran about 14 miles today, UsedFuel = 2.4 liters and consumed 100 ml of water, so its about 4% of water and 96% gas. I've been conservative, but the plan is to increase the water consumption as much as I can.

[Buzo]

In today's trip both the graduated glass and the .5 liters bottle got consumed over my 10.5 miles distance, for a total of 0.6 l (.15g) of water vs .58g of gas.
In other words I put additional 28% of water into the engine.

Did not see any change in fuel economy yet, I know I need to change the tune, but I'm not sure how. I have always used my O2 as feedback but it is in the mid range already.

Any idea would be welcomed.

I am assuming the water is being turned into vapor by the heaters. But just in case I think I'm going to wrap a couple of turns of copper line around the exhaust, so all the water must pass through the intense heat and get vaporized before entering the engine.

[Legend_master]

Well my understanding is that you want to advance the engine to the point of destruction, and use the water vapors to suppress engine detonation.

[Dr_Snooz]

Wouldn't it be wonderful if we had knock sensors on these cars?

[obdriver6]

I don't know what this is but it sounds interesting!

[Buzo]

Well my understanding is that you want to advance the engine to the point of destruction, and use the water vapors to suppress engine detonation.

Can one of the guys that had tuned a turbo describe the process followed to get the max power out of it?
I assume this would be similar, advance a little bit at the time, until the engine knocks and retard some degrees, and so on for all possible driving conditions?

I ran the car w/o water injection today and I noticed that the car had to downshift when passing (an old problem I have always had).
But it didn't happen yesterday w/ water injection under similar passing conditions!

However, I am looking for fuel economy and not necessarily more power.

My engine knocks when the manifold temperature rises above 65C, during winter I can barely reach 40C, so the test for knocking suppression also needs to wait for the summer.

[Buzo]

Wouldn't it be wonderful if we had knock sensors on these cars?

Oh yes, the knock sensor might be used to trigger the water injection, instead of retarding the timing.
Do you know if there is a "free" threaded hole in the back of the engine where a knock sensor could be installed?
I have hundreds of knock sensors at my work place.

[Buzo]

I don't know what this is but it sounds interesting!

I read one guy that said that just by injecting water vapor to the engine, he reached 50% increase in FE. He also changed the compression ratio in the engine, but in a stock engine there must be still a 20% improvement. He doesn't describe his vapor injection method in his write up, so I am testing my own ways to get vapor into the engine in proportion to the load. That's it!

Water and Steam Injection, plus Gasification Systems

[obdriver6]

^ Yeah I was doing a bit of research after I posted and I got the idea of what it was but thanks for the link.

[Legend_master]

I read one guy that said that just by injecting water vapor to the engine, he reached 50% increase in FE. He also changed the compression ratio in the engine, but in a stock engine there must be still a 20% improvement. He doesn't describe his vapor injection method in his write up, so I am testing my own ways to get vapor into the engine in proportion to the load. That's it!

Water and Steam Injection, plus Gasification Systems

what about using a cruise control bracket to control the water vapor valve?

[Buzo]

This is what I'm going to do.

My cruising engine speed is usually between 2000 and 3000 RPM, I am going to make those areas of the fuel table lean so my O2 reading remains flat at zero volts. And then I am going to let the water injection to keep the engine safe for overheating or knocking.

I will leave the high load areas as they are now, so if I need to accelerate it will reach the high MAP or >3000 RPM zone and the mix will catch up to the richer sections.

My goal is to use less than 1/2 gallon of gas to get home (and still have a working engine).

[Dr_Snooz]

Do you know if there is a "free" threaded hole in the back of the engine where a knock sensor could be installed?

That's the $64k question, isn't it?

Here is one possibility on the front. It could also be the block drain though. I can't tell.



According to this thread (https://www.3geez.com/forum/carb-tech...r-discuss.html), there's a temp sensor on the back of the block of the carb cars that isn't on the FI cars.

This might be it. It's almost the perfect spot for a knock sensor.



BTW, these aren't my pics. I scavenged them off of Google. I think one of them is on the site here somewhere.

I have hundreds of knock sensors at my work place.

You must work for the most wonderful company on earth!

[cygnus x-1]

That front plug is a drain, and the rear one is for a coolant temp sensor used on some engines (not exactly sure which ones). So those won't work. If you remove one of the manifold supports you could use one of those holes. Try to find one as close to the head as possible.

I think you'll find that detecting engine knock is not so easy. And I'm betting you also won't experience any knock at cruising loads no matter how lean you make the mixture. From my experience the engine starts to misfire once you get any leaner than about 15.5:1. There is no knocking, it just doesn't fire the mixture and the engine starts to feel *nervous*. Advancing the timing in those areas may help or it may not. I have no idea what the water injection would do. For lean running heating the fuel would probably help it to atomize better and make combustion more stable.


C|

That's the $64k question, isn't it?

Here is one possibility on the front. It could also be the block drain though. I can't tell.



According to this thread (https://www.3geez.com/forum/carb-tech...r-discuss.html), there's a temp sensor on the back of the block of the carb cars that isn't on the FI cars.

This might be it. It's almost the perfect spot for a knock sensor.



BTW, these aren't my pics. I scavenged them off of Google. I think one of them is on the site here somewhere.



You must work for the most wonderful company on earth!

[Buzo]

Thanks for the pics and comments. I have never seen our engine from other angle than standing up in front or the sides of the car.
The one screw holding the oil tube looks close enough to the head. But anyway, sometime in the near future I plan to fix an oil leak I have from somewhere in the back of the engine, so I would have to remove the inlet manifold. It would be a good opportunity to look for a place for the sensor.

I have ran two days while slowly decreasing the fuel injected. The O2 sensor reading stays more time at 0 volt and it rises to 1 V when I leave the cruising area, either when I accelerate for passing or when I release the pedal. There has been not noticeable change in fuel economy yet, but I will keep removing fuel every day until the car can't longer keep the speed up, or i see an increase in the temp, or I hear the engine being destroyed .

I am using almost 1 liter of water per trip, if a lean mix produces heat, I hope the water helps to keep it cool (besides the current cold weather)

[Dr_Snooz]

the rear one is for a coolant temp sensor used on some engines (not exactly sure which ones).

If Lost's thread (above) is correct, that's for the carb cars. Buzo has converted to a GM throttle body FI system and has a completely different ECU, so I'd say that location is fair game for him.

or I hear the engine being destroyed .

Be careful with that. Speaking from personal experience with these cars, pinging can be very hard to hear. Mine was pinging for weeks before I finally heard it while passing under a narrow bridge.