questions about timing belt replacement procedure

[derolph]

I’m still debating whether to attempt the timing belt replacement myself. After reading my Haynes manual, a few questions come to mind.

1) The manual says to unbolt the A/C compressor, setting it aside. From my perspective, the compressor is not a significant obstruction to replacing the timing belt. I can't see the need to unbolt it. Is this really necessary?

NOTE: My car has no A/C compressor belt on it; the compressor has been inoperative for a long time.

2) The manual says remove the alternator and bracket. Like the A/C compressor, I do not see the need to remove the alternator. As I see it, the alternator belt must, of course, be removed but the alternator does not have to be removed. Am I right, or does it have to be removed?

3) The manual says to have an assistant firmly hold a screwdriver in the timing viewport against the gear teeth on the flywheel to keep it from rotating during removal of the crankshaft pulley bolt with a socket and a breaker bar. I do have a very large screwdriver but I'm still wondering whether a screwdriver can really counter the force needed to break the pulley-to-crankshaft bolt loose.

4) One point that is not clear to me from the manual is the installation and tensioning of the new belt. I am under the impression that the lower timing belt cover would be replaced after the belt is properly positioned on the pulleys and that the final tensioning of the belt can then be done by adjusting the belt tensioner bolt (which goes through the lower timing belt cover). Finally, the top timing belt cover can then be replaced. Does this sound right?

5) Regarding removal of the left engine mount, the manual only mentions removing the long (horizontal) through bolt. But, in my view, two short (vertical) bolts need to be removed to completely remove the engine mount from the side of the engine. Am I right?

[2drSE-i]

I’m still debating whether to attempt the timing belt replacement myself. After reading my Haynes manual, a few questions come to mind.

1) The manual says to unbolt the A/C compressor, setting it aside. From my perspective, the compressor is not a significant obstruction to replacing the timing belt. I can't see the need to unbolt it. Is this really necessary?

NOTE: My car has no A/C compressor belt on it; the compressor has been inoperative for a long time.

2) The manual says remove the alternator and bracket. Like the A/C compressor, I do not see the need to remove the alternator. As I see it, the alternator belt must, of course, be removed but the alternator does not have to be removed. Am I right, or does it have to be removed?

3) The manual says to have an assistant firmly hold a screwdriver in the timing viewport against the gear teeth on the flywheel to keep it from rotating during removal of the crankshaft pulley bolt with a socket and a breaker bar. I do have a very large screwdriver but I'm still wondering whether a screwdriver can really counter the force needed to break the pulley-to-crankshaft bolt loose.

4) One point that is not clear to me from the manual is the installation and tensioning of the new belt. I am under the impression that the lower timing belt cover would be replaced after the belt is properly positioned on the pulleys and that the final tensioning of the belt can then be done by adjusting the belt tensioner bolt (which goes through the lower timing belt cover). Finally, the top timing belt cover can then be replaced. Does this sound right?

5) Regarding removal of the left engine mount, the manual only mentions removing the long (horizontal) through bolt. But, in my view, two short (vertical) bolts need to be removed to completely remove the engine mount from the side of the engine. Am I right?

1.No need to remove A/C compressor
2. No need to remove alternator
3. Believe me when I say, the absolute BEST way to remove the crank bolt is with impact. Short of that, there are several other tricks, but a large screwdriver against the timing cover might work.
4. It's best to get the tensioning done before installing the lower timing cover, just in case something doesn't quite work out. Unless I'm forgetting something. Then, yes, the upper cover can go back on.
5. There is no reason to remove the mount from the side of the engine. there is a grommet surrounding the mount that just slides out of the lower timing cover.

[derolph]

Thanks for your reply.

3. Believe me when I say, the absolute BEST way to remove the crank bolt is with impact. Short of that, there are several other tricks, but a large screwdriver against the timing cover might work.

Well, I don't have an air impact tool. I am thinking about possibly buying one; I would need to buy an air compressor too. Of course, I don't want to buy such tools for a one-time use so I need to assess whether the purchase would be worthwhile in the long run.

Regardless of what tool I use to remove the crank bolt, the crankshaft must somehow be prevented from turning.

5. There is no reason to remove the mount from the side of the engine. there is a grommet surrounding the mount that just slides out of the lower timing cover.

I'm not clear on this. That engine mount is a load-bearing, i.e. engine supporting, mount, not just a stabilizer. And, I believe the mount connector on the engine block is between the downside of the belt and the upside; in other words, it's inside the belt loop. So, the old belt can't come off and the new belt can't be put on without disconnecting that mount from the engine.

[Dr_Snooz]

1.) I don't think you have to remove the alternator and compressor, but you might find it saves wear and tear on your hands and unnecessary flexing on the lower cover. It can be very tight down there.

2.) It's been a while since I did this, but I think the alternator top bracket has to come off or you won't get the cover off.

3.) The screwdriver deal wouldn't be my first choice. Too much like a Three Stooges skit. If you put the passenger tire on the ground, the trans in first and the parking brake on, you should be able to break the bolt loose. It will be flexy, but it will hold. If you have an AT, then just drop a 1/2" impact socket extension down the timing hole. It will wedge itself in the hole without falling all the way in; then the drive plate will jam against it and hold quite well.

4.) It's best to tension after installing the lower cover and the pulley. To tension the belt properly, you need to turn the crank counterclockwise a half-turn before tightening the tensioner bolt. The only way to get any purchase on the crank is with the pulley bolt. There's really no point in installing the pulley just to pull it back off to install the lower cover. I don't recommend installing the pulley bolt without the pulley either.

5.) You are correct. All bolts have to be removed, but the mount itself recesses in the perch and gives you more room to work.

Whatever else you do, be sure to check TDC at the crank and cam both before and after installing the belt. They will move around as you install the belt.

Also, the torque spec for the pulley bolt is 108 ft-lbs. If you don't have a torque wrench, buy, borrow or rent one so the torque is right. There are some real horror stories about over-torqued pulley bolts. Guys spend days trying to remove them. It's not worth whatever you think you're saving by not using a torque wrench.

The timing belt service is a lot of work, but not rocket science. If you have good basic wrenching skills, a good manual (use the Honda manual on the wiki, not the Haynes) and enough time, it's a good way to save a bundle.

[2drSE-i]

Ok yes I see what you were saying about the mount, the two bolts must be removed, but the mount bracket can stay on the engine.

And yes SnoOz is correct about tensign in the belt, I'm an idiot and forgot the cover goes underneath the pulley

[derolph]

2.) It's been a while since I did this, but I think the alternator top bracket has to come off or you won't get the cover off.

I just took a very close look and I would agree if we were talking about replacing the water pump. But, I'm not replacing it and that top bracket you mentioned does overlap the water pump but not the timing belt cover.

3.) The screwdriver deal wouldn't be my first choice. Too much like a Three Stooges skit. If you put the passenger tire on the ground, the trans in first and the parking brake on, you should be able to break the bolt loose. It will be flexy, but it will hold. If you have an AT, then just drop a 1/2" impact socket extension down the timing hole. It will wedge itself in the hole without falling all the way in; then the drive plate will jam against it and hold quite well.

I have a MT. So, with the passenger tire on the ground but the driver's side tire off, won't the drive axle on that side turn? If not, does this procedure carry any risk of transmission damage due to stress when removing the bolt?

4.) It's best to tension after installing the lower cover and the pulley. To tension the belt properly, you need to turn the crank counterclockwise a half-turn before tightening the tensioner bolt. ...

Turning the crank counterclockwise a half-turn before tightening the tensioner bolt is a good bit further than what the Haynes manual says. It says "rotate the crankshaft counter-clockwise for a distance of three teeth on the camshaft sprocket. This puts tension on the belt." I also have a Chilton manual (1973 -1988 Accord/Civic/Prelude) which says to rotate the crankshaft 1//4 turn to tension the belt. So, we have some different perspectives here.

I hope the belt tensioning phase of belt replacement will become clearer by actually doing the job. I'm puzzled that the technique generally used for power steering and alternator belts of pressing on the belt at a certain point with a certain amount of pressure and measuring how far the belt flexes from a straight line is never mentioned in connection with a timing belt.

4.) ... The only way to get any purchase on the crank is with the pulley bolt. There's really no point in installing the pulley just to pull it back off to install the lower cover. I don't recommend installing the pulley bolt without the pulley either.

I believe you used an unintended word in the first sentence above. The word is "purchase". Can you clarify that sentence?

Whatever else you do, be sure to check TDC at the crank and cam both before and after installing the belt. They will move around as you install the belt.

Excellent point.

Also, the torque spec for the pulley bolt is 108 ft-lbs.

In my Haynes manual, the stated torque for years 1984-1988 is 83 ft-lbs. For 1989, it says 108 ft-lbs. You have an '89 Accord; mine is an '88. My Chilton manual also says 83 ft-lbs. Ah, I just found it in the Honda manual on the wiki, too, and it also says 83 ft-lbs.

If you don't have a torque wrench, buy, borrow or rent one so the torque is right.

I do have a torque wrench.

Thanks much, doc, for your input on this topic.

[Dr_Snooz]

I just took a very close look and I would agree if we were talking about replacing the water pump. But, I'm not replacing it and that top bracket you mentioned does overlap the water pump but not the timing belt cover.

Again, it's been awhile. You'll find out when you do it.

does this procedure carry any risk of transmission damage due to stress when removing the bolt?

Not any more than racing with your buddy, or missing a shift, or hitting a giant pot-hole at 80 MPH.

Turning the crank counterclockwise a half-turn before tightening the tensioner bolt is a good bit further than what the Haynes manual says.

Doesn't matter. You just want to remove all slack from the one side of the belt. Three teeth seems insufficient to me though.

I'm puzzled that the technique generally used for power steering and alternator belts of pressing on the belt at a certain point with a certain amount of pressure and measuring how far the belt flexes from a straight line is never mentioned in connection with a timing belt.

The timing belt uses a tensioner like the serpentine systems on new cars. In that case, the tensioner holds tension. Without a tensioner, you have to set the tension by measuring deflection under load.

The word is "purchase". Can you clarify that sentence?

purchase (ˈpɜːtʃɪs)



— n


9. a firm foothold, grasp, etc, as for climbing or levering something


- Purchase | Define Purchase at Dictionary.com

In my Haynes manual, the stated torque for years 1984-1988 is 83 ft-lbs. For 1989, it says 108 ft-lbs. You have an '89 Accord; mine is an '88. My Chilton manual also says 83 ft-lbs. Ah, I just found it in the Honda manual on the wiki, too, and it also says 83 ft-lbs.

It probably won't matter. Not to be pedantic, but bear in mind that the '88 manual on the wiki is for the Russian market. It includes info on anti-lock brakes and engines we didn't get here. It also has nothing about US smog controls. The '89 manual is for the US market. The only real difference between the '88 and '89 model years in the US was the introduction of the SE-i trim package. Otherwise, the cars are identical as far as I know.

It's possible that the 108 figure ended up in the '89 manual because dealers kept finding pulleys loose at 83 ft-lbs. I don't think it really matters though. 108 won't be too tight and if 83 is too loose, you'll eventually hear the pulley wobbling around on the crank. It may wallow out the pulley some, but won't likely cause too much other damage before curiosity will lead you to find it. For reference, it sounds like a wumping under the hood. Ask me how I know.

Someone with the '88 US manual is welcome to weigh in here. They are also welcome to scan that manual so we can put it up on the wiki with the others.

BTW, throw those other manuals in the trash. They are often misleading or flat-out wrong. Follow the Honda manual.

[88Sleeper]

Get the timing belt & water pump kit from.partsgeek.com

I got it for a water pump, but now that I'm in there, I'm just going to use it all. The kit has all OEM parts, for $68 I thought it was a steal... (OEM parts for 04 odyssey find 2wks back was $400) -_-'

Dr_Snooz is right, use impacts. When putting back on, hold pulley with a chain wrap & torque the sucker...

[88Sleeper]

My '88 U.S. service manual says 83 ft lbs.

[derolph]

I took the car to a shop merely to have them loosen the crankshaft pulley bolt. They loosened and then tightened to what they felt was not too tight. But, when I got home, I was still not able to get it off; it was still too tight to remove with a regular socket wrench. I guess I'll go back and ask them to loosen it and then tighten it by hand.

I have noticed that the pulley has two small holes in it. Once I finally get the bolt off and get the new belt on, I wonder whether a long bolt or screw driver or hex key, etc. could be put in one of those holes as a way too prevent to pulley from turning so that I can tighten it to the proper torque.

Question about the belt tightening/tensioning procedure: can the belt be over-tightened?

Get the timing belt & water pump kit from.partsgeek.com
...
Dr_Snooz is right, use impacts. When putting back on, hold pulley with a chain wrap & torque the sucker...

Thanks for your input, 88Sleeper. I had already bought the belt and tensioner pulley from Advance Auto Parts. And, I bought a crankshaft seal and camshaft seal from NAPA.

Thanks for the suggestion about the chain wrap technique. I've seen that on youtube since starting the forum discussion and it looks like a viable way to prevent the pulley from turning while torqueing it. Also, I might try it to get the bolt off (see comments above about taking the car to a shop to get the bolt loosened).

My '88 U.S. service manual says 83 ft lbs.

Thanks for confirming that.

[88Sleeper]

Hey Derolph,

Sure, no problems. I'm basically doing the same thing you're doing now cause I seized my water pump. Then when I took my timing covers off I decided I should fix my oil leak, then found that EVERYTHING was leaking (camshaft, crankshaft, oil pump, etc.

As for the timing belt tensioner, the way it's designed you can't over tension it. The pulley (you can check out the new one if you'd like to confirm) has an oblong bolt hole in it. It's not a perfect circle because it's designed only to let the bolt through, to bolt to the block, but so that the tensioner can move back and forth along the bolt a little bit. The spring that holds one end of the flat plate the pulley rides on is there to ensure proper tension is put on the belt at all times. However, you'll probably find that this also makes it a bit harder to put the belt back on. At least, it will be more than say, and ''04 Odyssey. In that application, there is a spring loaded "grenade-pin" tensioner that pushes against a pulley holding "arm" that puts tension on the belt, but when you install the new belt, you tighten it mostly up by screwing in a special beveled screw on the other tensioning pulley about 5 inches to the right of the main auto-tensioner. I digress: main point: it does it auto-majically for you, so don't worry about it. Just make sure you put the spring back correctly and you're g2g.

I'm in the middle of doing the same service you're probably about to do. I got my crankshaft pulley unscrewed using a 1/2" impact gun, took it off like a breeze (for reference, odyssey is supposed to be 240 ft-lbs, but my 350 ft-lbs 1/2 impact couldn't get it off, I had to grab the 500 ft-lbs 3/4"impact to get that beotch off -_-')

The Service manual says to use the 2 holes there to assist in holding the pulley if you have the special service tool or whatever... You have a manual like me: When it comes time to put tighten the pulley, screw the bolt in, then lower the car back onto the wheels. With it in gear (I suggest 5th, & parking brake on) to tighten it. You should still have the plastic undercarriage cover off so you should have decent access.

Also, quick note: the service manual doesn't give you details on how to reassemble everything, so one note I learned from my '04 service manual about installing the bolt in the crank: clean the whole thing off as best you can first, not particularly the head, but the washer and everything else. Next, put the washer on the correct way (It makes particular note to make sure you put the beveled end of the washer towards the bolt head (flat part against pulley))

Ok, now from the odyssey manual: Oil the washer where it sits on the bolt, then lightly oil the entire shank and threaded portion of the bolt, and install. Torque it to 87 ft-lbs (I have to make up for the fact that my torque driver is old & probably inaccurate, plus peace of mind, with Dr_Snooz's wobbling pulley comment ) and get the rest of the belts back on and fire it up!

[88Sleeper]

I also forgot, getting the bolt off is half the effort, my crank pulley was stuck on my crank: if that happens, just wobble it back and forth from left to right until it works free. I gave up on day 1, so I sprayed PB blaster on the spline and key, and tried again next morning, came off with a little bit more working of the pulley...

Question for others on here: I am having a hard time taking my seals out. I read Mushroom toy's old thread about using a flat screwdriver to pry them out, but I'm afraid I'm already scratch my camshaft. I also tried using some Picks to grab it and pull it out, but all I ended up doing was bending my picks T.T The inner seal lip is super soft and tears easy by picks and the screwdriver, but the outer edge is hard as a friggin rock & seems to be melted to the head! >=[

Would appreciate advice on this matter, as I haven't attempted the crank seal yet, but somewhat afraid to score them all.

I also have had a harsh rattle coming out of my valve cover, so I'm going to crack that open tomorrow, but I'm hoping my camshaft hasn't been toasted.. I think my leaking oil pump didn't give enough oil into the valve train and I'm going to regret not dealing with this sooner...

Derolph, if you have any questions or get stuck in the middle of it, let me know and I'll try to give you insight on how mines going! Best of luck!!

[derolph]

88Sleeper, thanks for the additional input. I was expecting the removal of the old seals to be a fairly simple matter but, as you've illustrated, it might not be so simple.

Regarding the two small holes in the pulley, I figured they are there to accommodate some type of pulley holding tool. Such a tool would be quite helpful. I'm still thinking I'll try the chain-wrapped-around-the-pulley technique. I have a chain which should work for that.

I noticed you mentioned putting the transmission in 5th gear to tighten the pulley bolt without the use of a chain, pulley tool, etc. Dr_Snooz had said to use 1st gear for attempting to loosen the bolt without an impact wrench. But, I'm thinking 5th gear would work better when attempting to loosen or tighten the bolt with the tranny in 1st gear. Using 1st gear results in maximum torque being transferred to the wheels from attempting to turn the bolt and preventing wheel turn is, therefore, more difficult to overcome/prevent than if a higher gear were used.

By the way, you might want to start a new topic regarding your seal removal problems.

[Accordtheory]

Working on cars is a pain in the ass. I occasionally buy myself tools just to make myself want to do the work by wanting to use the tool. My 2 favorite automotive tools are my ingersoll rand 2135ti impact and 2025 impact ratchet. The impact ratchet has nowhere near the power of the 2135ti, but it is still awesome. It is an air ratchet with reactionless torque, just like a normal impact, but it looks like a ratchet and fits into all kinds of awkward spaces. Those tools can save a massive amount of time and frustration, believe me.

But I don't recommend using impacts to tighten. A quick trigger pull on the 2135ti will significantly overtighten the crank pulley, for example. The only things I consistently use my 2135ti to tighten are axle nuts. But these days most mechanics tighten everything but head bolts and rod bolts with impacts. Tightening with impacts=not caring, torque wrenches or a well calibrated human arm= love. Not to mention some things cannot be tightened with an impact, like leaf spring bolts. They simply will not tighten, due to their torsional flex absorbing the impact. Rookie mechanics don't know that and will have an axle falling off a truck because of their ignorance.

Yes, 5th gear is the one to use. One wheel off the ground will not work, the other wheel will turn backwards. The parking brake only applies on the rear wheels. If you have the front on jack stands, you can still do this easily if you have another person around, just have them push the brake pedal. You also may be able to block the flywheel through an access panel, I can't remember.

Hondas I remember, the timing belt tensioner does not move at all once tightened. It cannot, the bolt clamps it in place. The spring is there to provide the right amount of tension against the belt before tightening. You rotate the crank to get tension on the other side of the belt, so the tensioner takes up the slack, and then tighten the bolt holding the tensioner. A lot of guys also push on the tensioner lightly by hand while tightening the bolt, although that sort of defeats the purpose of the spring.

Replacing seals, you do have to mangle them to get them out. I've poked holes in them and pried from the hole, hammered them in one one side, pried them across, pried from a side, etc. It's actually not that difficult, since the metal of the seal itself can be gripped so easily in so many ways. But you must not damage the surface of the shaft they seal to. It matters less if you scar the stationary surface the seal mounts into, you can always use a little sealant on that.

[derolph]

Hi Accordtheory. Thanks for your comments; more helpful advice.

Here's a question for everyone. Before I remove the old belt, I want to check it to see whether it is installed for correct engine timing. I have some suspicion that it is off a notch. My suspicion is the result of some research on engine behavior and performance. To check this, I would do as follows:

1) with the timing covers removed, turn the camshaft pulley so that the UP mark is at top.
2) look in the timing port to see whether the 0 degree, or T, mark on the flywheel is aligned with the timing marker.
3) to confirm the one-notch-off theory if the T is not aligned with the timing mark, slip the belt off the crankshaft pulley and change its position by a notch. Then, look in the timing again to see whether the T is aligned with the timing mark. If not, adjust again, etc.

[derolph]

Folks, I have the new belt on threaded on the sprockets and tensioner pulley but the tensioner spring is not attached. I left it off the spring pin because I could not get enough slack in the belt to get it on. Can someone explain exactly how you deal with this part of installing a new belt?

[derolph]

Folks, I have the new belt on threaded on the sprockets and tensioner pulley but the tensioner spring is not attached. I left it off the spring pin because I could not get enough slack in the belt to get it on. Can someone explain exactly how you deal with this part of installing a new belt?

Well, disregard my previous post. I got the belt on. I realized I would, indeed, have to have the tensioner completely mounted (with spring properly connected) and then push it out (to the right) and tighten the bolt and then put the belt on. My first attempt failed. Then, I realized I did not have the tensioner pushed out to the max. I loosened the bolt and used my giant screw driver to force the damn thing out to the max, then tighten the bolt. Finally, I got the belt on, although it was still difficult due to absence of slack anywhere. This belt seems to have been manufactured with absolute minimum length to still allow getting it mounted.

[derolph]

Question for others on here: I am having a hard time taking my seals out. I read Mushroom toy's old thread about using a flat screwdriver to pry them out, but I'm afraid I'm already scratch my camshaft. I also tried using some Picks to grab it and pull it out, but all I ended up doing was bending my picks T.T The inner seal lip is super soft and tears easy by picks and the screwdriver, but the outer edge is hard as a friggin rock & seems to be melted to the head! >=[

Would appreciate advice on this matter, as I haven't attempted the crank seal yet, but somewhat afraid to score them all.

88Sleeper, to remove my crank seal, I discovered a method which worked great for me. I found it at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJqI6WExX8Q. The guy showed how to use a simple paint can opener to remove a seal.

[88Sleeper]

Lol, that's hilarious, I just tried that yesterday. I will have to check it out, I failed with mine. I ended up getting mine out by lightly tapping a really thin flat screwdriver into it on the outside edge, and leveraged/slid it out. I felt dumb fir not trying that sooner...

Glad you got the belt on well, now I have a reference point for that too.
I'm hoping I get my new oil pump o rings today finally...

I can't believe they have to order them from Honda CA, shop them to Boston, then ship them to Boise, just to fill an order... Sigh

[88Sleeper]

Btw, when you were aligning camshaft, did you set the pulley to straight up, or with the 9 & 3 o'clock marks level with the head?

[derolph]

Btw, when you were aligning camshaft, did you set the pulley to straight up, or with the 9 & 3 o'clock marks level with the head?

with the 9 & 3 o'clock marks level with the head. Of course, UP was on the upper side, not down on the bottom side of the sprocket.

[88Sleeper]

Ok, thanks. I'm a little iffy on how well I can get mine aligned, since you can't actually look at it straight to sign it (due to fender) I was going to do "best guesstimate" method, but wondering if there was a better way, lol.

Thanks!
Dominic

[derolph]

Ok, thanks. I'm a little iffy on how well I can get mine aligned, since you can't actually look at it straight to sign it (due to fender) I was going to do "best guesstimate" method, but wondering if there was a better way, lol.

I know what you mean. If the engines in these cars were truly mounted in the engine bay in a true vertical orientation (cylinders would point straight up), then the UP mark would, indeed, be straight up. But, the engines are actually tilted toward the front.

You might try a 6 inch ruler or anything straight and hold it next to the joint between the cylinder head and the engine block and use that as a guide to aligning the cam sprocket.

[88Sleeper]

That's a good suggestion, I'll definitely try it out!

[derolph]

Ok, thanks. I'm a little iffy on how well I can get mine aligned, since you can't actually look at it straight to sign it (due to fender) I was going to do "best guesstimate" method, but wondering if there was a better way, lol.

Just had another thought of a similar nature. Hold something straight and flat across the end of the cam sprocket and align that object with the marks on the sprocket. This might help in visually aligning the marks on the sprocket with the top of the cylinder head.

Perhaps this technique could be used in conjunction with my previous idea, although you might needs 4 arms and 4 hands to do it. LOL