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Thread: High-revving A20?

  1. #1
    LXi User Oyvind Ryeng's Avatar
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    Question High-revving A20?

    I *have* searched, using all the possible keywords, but: nothing.
    Yes, I know you loose some of that oh' so precious low-down-torque /w short stroke.

    Anyway, the A20 engine with it's enormously long stroke; will it not rip the pins out of the pistons @ 8000RPM? Possible to change crank? Machine old crank to shorter stroke?



  2. #2

    shepherd79's Avatar
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    talk to sean. he can help you with that.
    i wouldn't rev the stock motor past 6500 rpm.
    Alex.

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    Hash_man_Se_i's Avatar
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    I was also wondering along the same lines as this. Like if you get those higher compression pistons, and maybe some other things like bigger injectors, and higher flow fuel pump, i would only imagine that the A20 could hold up to higher revs, and produce more power?

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    shepherd79's Avatar
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    the problem with higher revs you will need wild cam to get the benefits of higher revs.
    the stock cam is not designed for high revs.
    if you get cold cams wild stage, it will produce more power at higher end.
    Alex.

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    A20A1's Avatar
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    Wasn't someone going to put the A18 crank in?
    As for the high revs everything was fine for me till the motor detonated... which caused the crank bearring to split and well that as you say was that.
    - llia


  6. #6
    LXi User Oyvind Ryeng's Avatar
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    A18 crank? Sounds interesting, but isn't the A20 just an overbored A18?

    Cams are a problem, yes. The original ones are made to give lots of low-end torque, but they are ineffective at higher RPM's. Of course, if you get like 280-duration cams with 10-11mm-ish lift, you would loose some low-end torque. But what difference does low-end torque make when it pulls like HELL towards redline?

    The problem with high revs is not the fuel- or ignition system; that is easily taken care of. The problem lies with the high possibility of mechanical failiure in the pistons/pins/rods/crank because of the excessive piston speed. Naturally, a crank with shorter stroke would not move the pistons/rods as *fast* as a crank with longer stroke *at the same RPM* - less stress is put on the crank /w shorter stroke. One more thing; the weight of the moving parts: think of the following: hold a 2-pound object in your hand, jerk it up/down 8000 times a minute, and notice how tired your arm gets. Then do the same without the object in hand; you don't get as tired. Think of the poor crank that has to move the pistons up/down thousands of times a minute; try to imagine how strong it has to be...

  7. #7
    LXi User Cyric_accord's Avatar
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    How about building a Stroker kit for the A20? increasing the stroke to slow down engine speed and make a higher Tq.

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    A20A1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyric_accord
    How about building a Stroker kit for the A20? increasing the stroke to slow down engine speed and make a higher Tq.
    Then it would just be sad to drive it around... as is it has good drivability.

    Hey how did you know I had a 280 duration cam.
    - llia


  9. #9
    LXi User Oyvind Ryeng's Avatar
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    Well, a 280-cam is usually a good choice in most engines that want more top-end without loosing all low-end TQ. How is your idle, A20A1? Sometimes a long-duration-cam gives rough/nervous idle. What lift is it? Who made it? Regrinded?

    EDIT: More ontopic, a long-stroke crank would be the opposite of what I want. I don't want ANY driveability; I want to break traction with both wheels in 3rd gear @ over 4000 RPM (when the boost is at it highest, and the evil cam starts to get into its working range).
    Last edited by Oyvind Ryeng; 03-21-2004 at 10:10 PM. Reason: Added comments

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    LXi User Cyric_accord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A20A1
    Then it would just be sad to drive it around... as is it has good drivability.

    Hey how did you know I had a 280 duration cam.

    Ok, just checking... looking at all possibililties....

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    A20A1's Avatar
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    Idle is a bit rough due to the drop in vacuum, I had to rig up an extra vacuum holding tube to help raise the vacuum signal to the advance diaphragm on the distributor.
    Normalyy I'm good at about 800 to 1000 rpm but after the motors warm I can get it to idle down at 500 rpm, even in gear (AUTO)... pretty nifty... I give all the credit to my accel coil and BOSH +4's.

    The cam was a regrind... done by Colt cams in Canada. I'm in Hawaii BTW
    It's a 4,000 rpm to 7,500 rpm powerband.
    I forget what the lift was, I have the card somewhere...

    I'm currently working on adapting a 4bbl carb as my second project for my high reving A20. I already built a 4-1 header... as you can see in my sig pic. I also upped the oil pressure by adding a spacer in the valve behind the oil filter.

    I think my first motor might have detonated cause, over heating due to the water pump spinning too fast... and possible the plugs I was using weren't the correct heat range... the plugs ceramic was blow apart... but the electrode itself wasn't damaged so I can rule out it getting smashed by a piston. I've also been running with the stock fuel pump... baaaaad idea. But when I get the money I'll get a good pump.

    I don't care for drivability either... but my exhaust noise attracts cops from miles around.
    - llia


  12. #12
    LXi User Oyvind Ryeng's Avatar
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    A20A1: Nice project! Was the water temperature high when you killed the last engine? I was under the impression that a waterpump @ high revs would move more water = cool better?

    Maybe you are leaning out @ WOT & high RPMs? What jetting are do you have? And what carb? Standard?

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    LXi User diegoaccord's Avatar
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    Why are people so scared to go above 6500?

    It'll take atleast 8500 STOCK. I do it all the time. With the stock set up, It ain't moving after 6500, but it'll rev with or with out load on the engine. I'll do 8500 in 1st, and about 8000 in second.

    I refuse to rev past 7000 on 3rd, 4th, or 5th, since it takes a bit to get through them.

    But, shit, just get the head to make the power @ 8000+ R/MIN, cause as it is we're already physically capable of atleast 8500, even though it is an A20.

  14. #14

    A20A1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oyvind Ryeng
    A20A1: Nice project! Was the water temperature high when you killed the last engine? I was under the impression that a waterpump @ high revs would move more water = cool better?

    Maybe you are leaning out @ WOT & high RPMs? What jetting are do you have? And what carb? Standard?
    If the pump spins too fast, cavitation in the coolant may lead to a lack of coolant flow through the engine. My water temp guage was hooked up to the radiator not to the thermostat housing at the time... so it wouldn't really matter what the temp was on the guage. not that I could remember.

    I had the 32/36 Weber... and it was jetted rich. Thought my O2 sensor could have been bad, fouled.
    - llia


  15. #15
    LXi User Oyvind Ryeng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diegoaccord
    It'll take atleast 8500 STOCK.

    But, shit, just get the head to make the power @ 8000+ R/MIN, cause as it is we're already physically capable of atleast 8500, even though it is an A20.
    What!? I could never imagined that it could withstand 8500 stock! Well, I guess it's a Honda, after all. <3

    You got any problems with big end- or Rodbearings? Excessive wear?

  16. #16

    A20A1's Avatar
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    LOL I had an 86, the acelerator cable or linkage got stuck, so I tossed it into neutral to slow down, but went a bit too slow so I ended up in the middle of the intersection so I threw it back into gear which made the most kick ass burnout from a neutral drop @ 8,500 - 9,000 rpm... sadly the motor was toast.
    Oil messes everywhere...
    I took some parts from her and got it towed.
    - llia


  17. #17
    LXi User diegoaccord's Avatar
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    Nope. This is my 2nd carbed 3G 89 DX 5sp 4dr. They both got abused. The first one had 159K on it.

    In the first car, over time, I think valves got burned, because one time after hitting about 7800 the engine's note had changed, and you could hear valve slap. The 8000 R/MIN led to increased oil usage, and eventually the loss of oil pressure one day on the interstate. But, the bottom end held up. No spun bearings, no welding the rings to the bores, or anything. the head WAS the problem.

    This 3G has alot less miles, and I use synthetic oil, and going past that '8' mark hasn't been one problem, not in 4000 miles of 8500 EVERYDAY.

    I'm getting a digi cam for this spring's/summer's race action. I'll make sure that I take video of me spinning an A20 to 8500.

  18. #18
    LXi User diegoaccord's Avatar
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    An 86? Neutral drop?

    I see in your sig, you have 2 89's, and an 86. I know atleast the 89 that was in your 7500 video was auto, and apparently that 86 is. Please don't tell me that other 89 is auto too. What about the Rolla? Man in this town finding a 3G auto is a rarity. You might have more auto 3G's in your yard than there are in all of Cincinnati.

  19. #19

    A20A1's Avatar
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    Sadly it was auto too... I have some parts left over from the 5-speed swap I was doing... I just need the trans.
    The rollas a slushie too.
    - llia


  20. #20

    A20A1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyric_accord
    Ok, just checking... looking at all possibililties....
    Personal preferance really... not to say you couldn't do it... but who knows how much travel is possible before the piston drops right out of the cylinder...
    - llia


  21. #21
    LXi User Oyvind Ryeng's Avatar
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    ...Or into the valves. I am still shocked, actually, that a stock A20 will handle 8500 on a daily basis. No need for a short-stroke crank, or titanium conrods, or ultralight pistons, obviously.

    EDIT: What about the valvetrain? No modifications needed?
    Last edited by Oyvind Ryeng; 03-22-2004 at 12:58 AM. Reason: Added question

  22. #22

    A20A1's Avatar
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    I've had burnt valves on one of my heads... and leaky valve guides/seals. But that head was on it's way out anyways. The valve guides and seals on my new head are giving out... I can see oil building up along the stems... nothing major though.

    If I had the money I would go with all the piston, connecting rod, and bearring upgrades I could... reguardless of what the stock bottom end could handle. Balance the bottom end too.
    - llia


  23. #23
    LXi User Oyvind Ryeng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A20A1
    I've had burnt valves on one of my heads... and leaky valve guides/seals. But that head was on it's way out anyways. The valve guides and seals on my new head are giving out... I can see oil building up along the stems... nothing major though.

    If I had the money I would go with all the piston, connecting rod, and bearring upgrades I could... reguardless of what the stock bottom end could handle. Balance the bottom end too.
    Yeah, reinforcements are always good to invest in. A little sad the day the fuelmanagement system decides to give to little fuel to your turbomachine, thereby burning holes in your precious Diamond-pistons. The more you invest in the motor, the bigger the fall if anything fails; sad but true.

    A20A1: So why don't you overhaul your top? It can't be sooo hard to do yourself?

  24. #24
    LXi User Oyvind Ryeng's Avatar
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    A16!

    The Accords also came with the A16 (carburetted) engine, and the main difference between the cranks seems to be:

    Connecting rods big end bore: A20=45mm, A16=42mm

    Other than that (and the stroke) the A16's crank seems to be a perfect replica of the A20's.

    A16A1 bore*stroke: 80mm*79,5mm
    A20A4 bore*stroke: 82,7mm*91mm

    This means that on the A20 spinning @ 8000 RPM the pistons avarage speed is a devestateing 4773 ft/minute!

    The A16 crank throws the piston @ a reasonable 4133 ft/min!

    As far as I can think, the compression ratio with the A16-crank and conrods should be lower than with the A20's - perfect for turbo!

    Now, where do I get a hold of a Honda A16 crank /w conrods...?
    Last edited by Oyvind Ryeng; 03-23-2004 at 12:08 PM. Reason: Typo

  25. #25
    DX User
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    am i lost here.... why the hell would you want to put a crank with a shorter stroke in... do you have any idea how much power you would lose. Not to mention the piston wouldn't travel far enough up the cylinder. I could not see that being to any benefit what soever... less stroke = less power.

    Matt
    1985 Honda Prelude SOHC ET-2

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