91 Integra OEM struts

[Gemini2003]

It took us a little while and most of an 18 case but we installed 4 Integra Struts and lowering Springs. In order to use the Integra struts we needed to change the forks and upper mount (to the Accord ones) on each Strut. Sorry for the terminology. So I guess you could say is that we used the Integra shock absorber and lowering spring. But anyway it worked and now I have part Integra part Accord suspension :-)

The Integra front struts where longer than then Accord fronts but the rear where shorter and with the lowering springs from the Integra I had a 2" drop In the back and a 1" in the front I have Accord lowering springs on the way so i'll just live with the 1" difference for now LOL

I can take pics if anyody wants.

[A20A1]

kewl... btw this belongs in the suspension forum.

[Busted_Blue]

interesting! any pics of this drop? I wonder what the shock absorber rates are on the integra are.

[Gemini2003]

Here is some more info:

I am no mechanic, However from what I do know and what we did on my car we found this out:
The bottom bracket on the rear shock absorbers is wider then the Accord ones so we filled the gap with washers.

As well the Integra rear shock absorbers are shorter then the stock Accord ones and the Integra front shock absorbers are longer then the stock Accord's.

We also used the lowering springs from the Integra. This caused a little bit of and issue because now I have like a 2" drop in the rear and a 1" drop in the front.

Unfortunately I am not sure if the difference in drop is from the shock length or the spring length.

If the issue is with the spring length I see no reason why you wouldn't be able to use these shock absorbers:

http://www.modacar.com/products/Acura/Integra/KYASK

http://www.jcwhitney.com/webapp/wcs/...0101&langId=-1

Please if I am technically incorrect or if something doesn't sound right feel free to correct me or get me to double check!

*************************************
smufguy's reply
*************************************

here is the thing a lot of people dont realize. Using different springs or different springs with higher or lower spring rates, changing the ratio of the spring rates to the front to back and the shock stiffness, you actually change the weight distribution.

Higher spring rate Spring tends to make the car heavier on whatever side it is installed. I have seen AWD cars eliminate understeer completely by using 1000lbs spring rate coils in the rear while using 600lb in the front.

So even tho u accomplished it with some nick and nack, i wanna know how this car stands up on a road test with a 3g with a koni and a coilover set up. as in a shox and coil setup made exclusively for our car.

[Busted_Blue]

smufguy has a point. I am wondering...if this setup will bring in more possibilities for tuning for our cars.

There is a whole debate on what exactly is good for handling. I've read about JDM spring rates vs North American spring rates. I perrsonally have tried both in a friend's car and I can say, BOTH work. But..i dont understand fully why both work. The japanese spring rates go stiffer in the front for the FWD cars while NA goes the opposite where rear is the stiffer spring. I dont exactly understand how both can work so well.

What I am hoping you accomplish, is open a door a for wider variety of products such as full one peice coilover sets or other parts like coilovers and shock absorbers. Hopefully you will bring in more details on how this setup performs.

[Hash_man_Se_i]

What I am hoping you accomplish, is open a door a for wider variety of products such as full one peice coilover sets or other parts like coilovers and shock absorbers. Hopefully you will bring in more details on how this setup performs.

I totally agree... I have been wanting to see if 4th gen accord suspension would work as well... because i would love to get some Tein SS coilovers that would fit on my accord.

[Zufer]

that's a sweet. i don't feel like the only crazy one now, right now i have civic front struts and 240sx rears both with coil overs. both required some modification but no too bad. I'll take some pics when i go home for fall break, i got them in just before i left. what's even better is i spent a total of 250 dollars on the struts and the front are illumina's and the back are some nice jdm ones. YAY connections

[hondamanlxi]

i have a theory: when using stock or any aftermarket struts for a 3g in conjuction with a massive drop (mine is 4in) their gonna blow b/c the strut is ALWAYS compressed below their "useful point"! so if you use shorter or shortend struts they should hold up more b/c their not compressed to that point?! right?

someone tell me what you think..

[Zufer]

i thought that putting a stiffer spring in the front transfered weight to the rear and vice verse, which is why using an extremely stiff rear spring on a FWD car can eliminate understeer

[Busted_Blue]

i thought that putting a stiffer spring in the front transfered weight to the rear and vice verse, which is why using an extremely stiff rear spring on a FWD car can eliminate understeer

In a sense, its hard to depict what is better. The General rule is stiffer rear = less understeer. But it all depends on how you drive. When I turn, I let off the gas so..therefore I have minimal understeer. I might have just adjusted to the fact my tokico springs are stiffer in the front than the rear. 370 front 195 rear (if i remember correctly).

Hashman..i'm thinking the same thing. I know for a fact that the Coilover length can be the same..but now to figure out which struts to handle it. Tein SS do come with strut mounts on it i believe. Only basics need to use exist mounts.


And... TEIN does make SS for DA9 aka 2nd gen Integras (91-93). The max and min ride height adjustment is .7 to 3.2 in the front and .6 to 3.3 in the rear. Now...its POSSIBLE to adjust the car so it looks FLAT. But..i'm wondering how this "stagger" suspension will affect performance as well as that strut height difference adjust the strain on the control arms/bushings. Keep us updated man.



Oh yea...do post pics.

[AZmike]

Changing spring rates does not affect weight distribution--a different spring can't move a car's center of mass. Changing the stiffness of the springs changes the car's handling characteristics at the limit because of how the roll stiffness is altered (among other things). Increasing the thickness of a rear anti-sway bar or using higher rate springs in the rear will reduce understeer/increase oversteer by increasing the rear roll stiffness. Likewise stiffening the front will increase understeer/reduce oversteer. I'll expalin how this work in detail if anyone is interested.

Comparing springs rates used between different cars isn't especially useful. The geometry of the suspension and the car's weight to a lesser extent have a huge effect on what springs rates will work well. For example, if the damper fork connection to the front lower control arm on our cars was moved inward several inches, the spring itself would have the same rate, but it world act like it was softer because it would be farther from the wheel (think of the lower control arm like a lever).

The fact that the Integra struts are longer than the Accord parts make them a bad choice--especially with a lowered car. From how the differences are described it sounds like it would be very easy to repeatedly bottom the shocks out, especially the front. This destroys shocks faster than just about anything.

[hondamanlxi]

so now, we need to find a honda with SHORTER struts than us...

[Busted_Blue]

Forgot about that AZMike.. geometry.


AZMIKE, i do have a debating question.

Japanese spring rates tend to be more bias to the front for hondas while North American spring rates are bias to the rear. (stiffness wise)

I've been thinking that softer rear with a stiffer stabilizer bar will be just as good as a stiff rear with a stablizer bar. I'm not too sure on the concept of both, but i know both work. I'm still wondering which one is ACTUALLY better.

For instance TEIN spring rates for a 99 Civic Si is 448front/228rear for SS coilovers.

I've seen ground controls that have spring rates of 500front/600rear and those work well too.

What are the differences? I'm still researching and figuring out exactly the differences and if you know anything I am willing to learn. I am trying to figure out exactly what is good for handling in a FWD.

[Gemini2003]

I will be getting pictures of my setup ASAP but I need to get my hands on a day off. If anyone has one of those please loan it to me!

Seriously though I am going to try to get some pictures.

Any shots anyone wants?

Aswell I need a good way of judging handling. I could tell you all about what I feel but I doubt that will help you much :-) is there a good way of measuring handling?

Sorry for being a n00b

[jonrichert]

I'll have my h&r's and tokicos on in a few days, so we can meet up and compare how they handle sometime. did you find them at the pick and pull?

[Gemini2003]

Yeah sitting on a bright yellow integra :-) I was so lucky I got all the H&R Springs and struts for $65 canadian! (Taxes in)!

[AZmike]

Japanese spring rates tend to be more bias to the front for hondas while North American spring rates are bias to the rear. (stiffness wise)

Are you referring to stock or aftermarket only?

I've been thinking that softer rear with a stiffer stabilizer bar will be just as good as a stiff rear with a stablizer bar. I'm not too sure on the concept of both, but i know both work. I'm still wondering which one is ACTUALLY better.

There is no agreed upon ‘better’. When it comes to racing (when ride quality is not really an issue) some prefer stiff springs and a soft bar others like softer springs (still stiffer than stock) and a much thicker bar. It also depends a lot on the surface. What works best or perfectly smooth roads will not work the best on bumpier surfaces. I like Carroll Smith’s way of setting things up; basically choose a spring rate that will keep the wheel’s travel within a reasonable limit and use stiff anti-sway bars to adjust the handling balance. This way the tire stays on the road better since small bumps will not upset the suspension as much.

For instance TEIN spring rates for a 99 Civic Si is 448front/228rear for SS coilovers.

I've seen ground controls that have spring rates of 500front/600rear and those work well too.

What are the differences? I'm still researching and figuring out exactly the differences and if you know anything I am willing to learn. I am trying to figure out exactly what is good for handling in a FWD.

It’s difficult to tell why they selected the rates they did. Keeping the front stiffer than the back will ensure understeer at the limit, which is safer and makes the company’s lawyers happy. The increased stiffness will still make the car seem more responsive than stock. The ground controls are so stiff than they would be probably not work very well on rougher roads (or at least be really uncomfortable), but the higher rear rate will limit understeer or even produce oversteer in some situations.

The bottom line is nearly all stock FWD cars will understeer quite a bit since they were designed to. My approach was be to lower the car slightly to bring down the cg, but not so far the car becomes impractical, using springs that stiffened the rear more than the front to make it more neutral at the limit. I choose dampers that would work with my spring rates that could also be adjusted if necessary. If I was still not happy with the balance I would stiffen the appropriate anti-sway bar. There is no right answer. It comes down to driver preference and road conditions.

Are you planning to change the setup on your Accord or are you just researching for later?

[Hash_man_Se_i]

Hashman..i'm thinking the same thing. I know for a fact that the Coilover length can be the same..but now to figure out which struts to handle it. Tein SS do come with strut mounts on it i believe. Only basics need to use exist mounts.


And... TEIN does make SS for DA9 aka 2nd gen Integras (91-93). The max and min ride height adjustment is .7 to 3.2 in the front and .6 to 3.3 in the rear. Now...its POSSIBLE to adjust the car so it looks FLAT. But..i'm wondering how this "stagger" suspension will affect performance as well as that strut height difference adjust the strain on the control arms/bushings. Keep us updated man.

I dont know... Im almost more willing to try 4th gen accord parts, seeing as they are fairly similar cars, and the fact that the DA9 shocks are longer kinda scares me, I dont wanna go with something that durastic of a change... I want there to be as little difference as possible... And I cant imagine using washers on the lower mount is such a good idea, cant be that safe now can it? ... I have a friend with a 4th gen, and she has Tein SS on it... seeing as it will be parked over the winter, maybe I can convince her to let me try one out one day, see if it all lines up/

[Gemini2003]

I don't see an issue with the washers, I mean all they are doing is makeing it so the lower mount doesn't move side to side.

But I could be wrong :-P

[Hash_man_Se_i]

I don't see an issue with the washers, I mean all they are doing is makeing it so the lower mount doesn't move side to side.

But I could be wrong :-P

I know, but i for one wouldnt trust washers on something that important... I would at least get some sort of plate machined to fit in there, instead of just stacking up washers.

[Gemini2003]

Yeah, I know what you mean :-) Thanks for your input!

[Busted_Blue]

Are you planning to change the setup on your Accord or are you just researching for later?

I am researching because I'm curious. Also, I have Tokico 1" Springs which is 370 in the front and 195 in the rear. I am getting F+R S/T sway bars so I am wonder the affect on my somewhat neutral feel of my car. I take my car to 70% of its capabilities on my favorite mountain road and I can say that the car has a neutral feel. Of course I am not taking the car to its absolute limit and I think that for a mountain road, the softer rates with a stiffer bar is optimal. I just am wondering on the actual effects of the bars before I even install them.

Hopefully if the deal goes through with site, i will also get koni reds in the front..so we'll see where my honda goes from there.

thanks for the info though mike! I'm glad there are people who are willing to answer questions.

[wprocomp]

the only other struts that might have a little more support than ours is the 88-91 prelude-from what I remember they are the same front only-I almost had the mugen SUStech suspension for the accord but the $1200 price was more than I could afford at the time

[guaynabo89]

the only other struts that might have a little more support than ours is the 88-91 prelude-from what I remember they are the same front only-I almost had the mugen SUStech suspension for the accord but the $1200 price was more than I could afford at the time

Where are you finding out about all this old mugen stuff for the Accord? Shoot me a Pm. I'm in need of some things.

[Zufer]

sorry to bring back an old thread but i was wondering what the official word on strut length is. Mainly wondering about the backs, are the strut bodies shorter or longer than the accord ones.