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Thread: Springs and Antiroll Bars + What's Available

  1. #1

    AZmike's Avatar
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    Post Springs and Antiroll Bars + What's Available

    How springs affect handling balance:

    The handling balance of a car is determined by the front to rear roll-stiffness bias of the suspension (along with alignment and tires). Roll stiffness is a function of springs and anti-roll bars. It basically describes how much the suspension resists the tendency of the car’s body to roll when cornering. How this is calculated is complicated and not really important if you are not designing a car from scratch. Whichever end of the car is made to be stiffer in roll will tend to loose traction first. Increasing the roll stiffness of the front will increase the tendency to understeer; increasing the roll stiffness of the rear will reduce understeer/add oversteer. Most cars come from the factory with quite a bit of understeer since it is considered safer. The handling balance can be made more neutral or even switched to oversteer with the addition of a stiffer rear sway bar or stiffer rear springs. Similarly, understeer can be increased by using a larger front anti-roll bar or stiffer front springs. Softening the opposite end has the same effect (softening the front instead of stiffening the rear to reduce understeer), but allows more body roll.


    Progressive v. linear springs

    A visual inspection can easily identify most progressive springs. The coil spacing will change—several coils will be spaced farther apart from each other than the others. These springs essentially have two spring rates: one when all the coils are active and another much higher rate with the closely spaced coils stack up. This allows a more comfortable ride since the rate is lower over small bumps while maintaining good performance since the close coils stack up as the body rolls when corning, limiting body roll. The disadvantage of progressive springs is that the transition to the higher rate can alter the handling balance depending on braking and throttle inputs since this will affect when the front and rear springs make the transition to the higher rate. A more expensive (less common) way to make progressive springs is to alter the wire diameter of some of the coils. Even if they are spaced the same, the coils with the smaller wire diameter will be softer and give a lower spring rate until they stack up. If the wire diameter is changed slowly over several coils, the coils will not stack at once since each of them has a slightly different stiffness, eliminating the abrupt transition from one rate to the other. Some springs, once supporting the weight of the car, will already have the closely spaced coils stacked. Since the stacked coils are never active in this case, the spring will act like a linear spring since it never transitions back to the softer rate.


    Calculating spring rate from physical measurements:

    k = (d^4*G)/(8*D^3*Na)
    k = spring rate (lb/in or N/m)
    d = wire diameter (meters or inches)
    G = modulus of rigidity (80.8*10^9 Pa, 11.7*10^6 psi)
    D = coil diameter (average inside and outside diameter), (meters or inches)
    Na = number of active coils

    Note that the spring rate is VERY sensitive to the wire diameter. If you’re unsure of any measurement you’ve taken pick a high estimate and low estimate and find the rate for both. You may be surprised to find how tiny differences in geometry translate into big differences in spring rate.

    This equation is useful even if you’re not calculating spring rate since it shows the effect of changes in spring geometry. Increasing wire diameter increases the spring’s rate. Decreasing coil diameter or the number of active coils raises the spring rate.


    Cutting stock springs

    Cutting stock springs isn’t always bad if done correctly. Cut them with a saw or something similar, not with a torch. Never heat the whole spring to lower the car, this will destroy the heat treatment that keeps springs from sagging. Cut springs will have a higher rate since there are fewer active coils. Removing one or maybe two coils and upgrading the shocks to account for the additional stiffness should be fine. If you intend to drop the car more than 1-1.5” (conservative estimate) you should plan on getting aftermarket springs. Even though cut springs are stiffer, they are also shorter--there is less spring to absorb energy so your suspension is more likely to bottom out. Aftermarket springs make up for their small loss of length with a greater increase in stiffness so they can absorb additional energy before the suspension runs out of travel.



    If you have anything to add or any questions post them below or PM me and I'll make changes as required.
    Mike



  2. #2

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    Post Springs Available (including coilovers and antiroll bars)

    Anti-roll bars made for the third generation Accord (they’re springs too):

    FORMAT
    [brand]
    F: [bar diameter], [ratio]
    R: [bar diameter], [ratio]
    The ratio compares a bar’s torsional stiffness to the stock stiffness of the 88-89 fuel injected car’s bars. This ratio is calculated assuming all bars have the same geometry as the stock parts (same lever arm twisting the bar).

    Stock 86-87
    F: 20.5mm (approx 13/16”), 0.69
    R carb: none
    R fuel injected: 12mm (approx 15/32"), 0.73
    Stock 88-89
    F: 22.5mm (approx 7/8"), 1.00
    R carb: none
    R fuel injected: 13mm (approx 1/2"), 1.00

    Addco
    F: 7/8”, 0.95
    R: 3/4”, 4.61
    Rear bar only works with drum brakes

    Suspension Techniques
    F: 15/16", 1.25
    R: 5/8", 2.22


    Springs made for the third generation Accord:

    FORMAT
    [brand] [approximate drop]
    F: [front ratio (rate/stock rate)], [front rate];
    R: [rear ratio (rate/stock rate)], [rear rate]

    Stock 0”
    F: 1.0, 211 lb/in; R: 1.0, 117 lb/in

    Tokico 1"
    F: 1.66, 350 lb/in; R: 1.63, 190 lb/in

    Suspension Tech 1"
    F: 1.62, 342 lb/in; R: 1.54, 180 lb/in

    Eibach sp lines*
    F: 1.62, 342 lb/in, R: 0.68, 80 lb/in
    Eibach prokits*
    F: 1.44, 304 lb/in; R: 0.83, 97 lb/in
    *See note below on Eibach spring rates

    H&R/Neuspeed 1.5”
    F: 1.26, 265 lb/in; R: 1.41, 170 lb/in

    Progress Group 2"
    F: 1.70, 358, lb/in; R: 2.05, 240 lb/in

    B&G 2.2” (only 1.6” advertised)
    F: 1.66, 350 lb/in; R: 2.05, 357 lb/in

    Suspension Techniques 2"
    F: 1.73, 365 lb/in R: 1.96, 229 lb/in

    Sprint 2.25"
    F: 1.66 350 lb/in; R: 1.92, 225 lb/in

    Ground-Control coilovers
    Use Eibach brand springs, different spring rates can be ordered
    F: 1.66, 350 lb/in; R: 2.14, 250 lb/in

    Dropzone/Spring tech coilovers
    F: 2.13, 450 lb/in; R: 3.00, 350 lb/in

    *These spring rates have been calculated differently than the other manufacturers (I don’t see how this is possible, but that’s what they said apparently) so this comparison may not be accurate.

    NOTE: Jim first compiled this list several years ago; listing only springs rates as changes from the stock rates. The higher rates were listed incorrectly. When contacting many of these companies to verify the figures, I have found that many of them are no longer making parts of the 86-89 Accord. The rates listed have been corrected for the known error, but this list should not be taken as the absolute truth.



    COILOVERS

    Coilovers from these cars are compatible (maybe others).
    Accord 86-89
    Accord 90-97
    Civic 88-91

    All coilover sets listed below include springs that are much stiffer than stock. Plan on getting either revalved Bilstiens or Konis to avoid having an underdamped (bouncy/floaty) ride. Known spring rates are listed with the other springs. Unless you require the ability to change the ride height or intend to corner-balance your car coilovers are probably not the best choice for you.

    Jim compiled this list a few years ago. When updating the spring rate list I found that many of the options listed are no longer available. The same is probably true for some of the coilovers listed below.
    __________________________________________________ _____________

    APC coilover 90-97 accord $179.25 www.nopionline.com
    Sleeve & Spring Coil-Over Kit

    Arospeed Coilovers 90-97 accord $149.95 free shipping?
    www.streetbeatcustoms.com/arcoilhonac9.html
    http://www.arospeed.com
    1-800-276-7733
    1-305-969-9973
    Support@arospeedd.com
    part# ARO660014
    Arospeed Coiloversare designed to give you the look you want with the performance you desire. Arospeed springs are linear rate and offer up to 4 inches of adjustability. Height is adjusted through use of a threaded sleeve that fits over

    Autotech Systems and Accessories
    20758 Centre Point Parkway
    Santa Clarita, CA 91350
    HOURS :: 9:00am to 5:00pm (Monday to Friday)
    TEL :: 1-661-250-3000
    EMAIL :: Info@TenzoRacingSports.com
    TECHNICAL INQUIRIES :: Tech@TenzoRacingSports.com

    Dropzone coilovers 86-89 accord $107
    http://www.dropzonesuspension.com/
    1-888-800-0051
    staff@dropzonesuspension.com
    http://www.dynamicautodesign.com/coilovers.htm $107
    http://www.ketronsales.com/coilovers.html $99

    Ground-control 86-89 coilovers drop range 0" to 3" $329
    www.nopionline.com
    www.ground-control.com
    1-530-677-8600
    part#4505.01

    HP RACING 90-97 accord $139.66 www.nopionline.com
    http://www.hpracing.com/
    info@hpracing.com
    hurrican power inc,
    1-800-522-7855
    Sleeve and Spring Coil-Over System - Adjusts 0" to 4" Front and Back-Polyurethane Bushings Gen1 Coil-Over Kits: The Gen1 Coil-over kits from HP Racing offer adjustable ride height from 0-4 inches. Each application has it's own spring rate to ensure a good ride and tight suspension to prevent the kits from vibrating and creating road noise. Heat-treated coils prevent springs from settling and corrosion.

    MaxSpeed Coilover Accord 90-97 $219.95
    http://shop.store.yahoo.com/racinglab/honac90maxco.html

    #1 coilover 90-97 accord $136.36 www.nopionline.com
    Sleeve & Spring Coil-Over Suspension Kit -Lowers 0" to 3" (fits shock absorber - OE, KYB, Koni and Tokico type)

    OBX gravitational coil over 90-97 accord $174
    part#HK06
    www.massivemotorsports.com/main/allcoilovers.htm
    http://www.obxracingsports.com/perfo...=4&subCat2ID=2
    OUTBACK PRODUCTS, INC. U.S.A.
    Fax: (650) 873-8802
    Email us: info@obxracingsports.com
    Designed from extensive circuit race testing. Developed in conjunction with one of the largest OEM suppliers. Ride height adjustable suspension kits keep vehicle weight distribution balance and will improve on HARD cornering and braking,
    without having the front suspension taking a nosedive. This kit draws out maximum performance of the car! your stock or aftermarket shocks and a dual locking perch mechanism. The kit includes 4 threaded sleeves, 4 pairs of locking perches, 4 linear rate springs, 4 urethane bushings, and 2 adjuster tools.

    RACER DESIGN coilover 90-97 accord $144.44 www.nopionline.com
    Sleeve and Spring Coil-Over Suspension Kit -
    Front and Rear - Lowers 0"-4" - Set of 4 - TITANIUM

    Racing Single Generation 3 Coilover 90-97 accord $159.99 free shipping
    http://www.gochargeit.com/enetgroup/....htm?add+CO200

    R1 RACING SINGLE COILOVERS 90-97 accord
    http://www.showtime-video.com/sincoil.html $229
    R1 high performance coilover systems feature progressive rate springs for a comfortable ride, while offering much-improved handling and style...Fully adjustable ride height up to 4-inch drop. Free Shipping and handling.

    RACTIVE Adjustable 0"-4" drop. You can get them from planetperformance.com for $185+s/h

    Skunk2 coilovers:90-97 accord $299.00 www.nopionline.com
    http://www.skunk2.com/start.htm
    info@skunk2.com
    909-808-9888
    Skunk-2 springs are CNC hot rolled using SUP12 alloy spring steel, heat treated, stress relieved, pre-set, phosphate treated, powder coated, and finally printed with the Skunk-2 logo. Hot rolling produces a spring with a consistent grain structure that is extremely resilient and will not deform or change rate. The combination of hot rolling and using only the highest quality alloy wire results in a spring with superior performance and ride characteristics. For increased strength, the dual spring perches are CNC machined from hot forged AL6061-T6. SkunkWorks Coil-Over kits allow you to adjust your ride height anytime you want. They provide more suspension travel and therefore will ride better than a normal lowering spring, even at extremely low settings.

    Tenzo Racing Coilover:90-97 accord$230 www.crveverything.com
    www.tenzoracingsports.com/
    Tenzo-R Coilovers are precision engineered to maximize your suspension performance. Carefully matched spring rates and height adjustability provide exceptional handling, response, control and balance. Increased spring rates combined with the ability to lower the center of gravity helps reduce body roll and
    optimize power transfer. Comes complete with everything you need for easy installation. Anti-locking Teflon O-rings assist the wrench tool for easy height adjusting.

    TSUDO coilover 90-97 accord $161.82 www.nopionline.com
    Sleeve and Spring Coil Over Kit - Lowers from 4.5" to 1" Front and Back - Set

    WEAPON-R has an adjustable system for the 3g accord, the price is $325.00.....Springs:
    Cold Wound / High Tensile Chrome Silicon Steel / Spring Rate Pre-set / Stress relieved /
    Phosphate Treated / Powder Coated.
    Adjustment Collar And Nuts:
    Cold Forged High Density Aluminum / Stress Relieved / Phosphate Treated /
    Polished to High Sheen


    If you have updates, other information that you think should be added, or any questions about what is listed here post them below and I'll make changes as required.

    I will not do your research for you. You are as capable of contacting the manufacturer as I am if you are curious about a particular product.
    Last edited by AZmike; 03-28-2006 at 08:18 PM.
    Mike

  3. #3
    3Geez Veteran smufguy's Avatar
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    Re: Springs and Antiroll Bars

    Thats a nice write up MIke.

    The following is the comparison between a Linear (Left) and Progressive Spring (right)



    click to enlarge

    Also here is a good website of a similar writeup. >>> http://www.v-performance.com/pr_susp.html

  4. #4
    3Geez Veteran ghettogeddy's Avatar
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    Re: Springs Available (including coilovers and antiroll bars)

    what about the tech 5s 2.25" drop springs for Honda Accord '86-'89 The Part Number for them is #105 are these for are cars

  5. #5
    LXi User SZfiftyfour's Avatar
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    Re: Springs and Antiroll Bars + What's Available

    http://www.stsuspensions.com/index.html

    Didn't see this place up there, they have lowering springs and front&rear swaybars listed for 3geez. Also coilovers listed for 88-91 civic.

  6. #6


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    Re: Springs and Antiroll Bars + What's Available

    Quote Originally Posted by CcordLevel2 View Post
    http://www.stsuspensions.com/index.html

    Didn't see this place up there, they have lowering springs and front&rear swaybars listed for 3geez. Also coilovers listed for 88-91 civic.
    St is just the new name for Suspension Techniques, and they've changed their trademark color from Purple to electric Green. Still great product though. Thanks for providing the link.
    -Mark D.


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    LX User gtmst3's Avatar
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    Re: Springs and Antiroll Bars + What's Available

    how low can you go with out worrying about alignment issues such as camber etc.?

  8. #8


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    Re: Springs and Antiroll Bars + What's Available

    Quote Originally Posted by gtmst3 View Post
    how low can you go with out worrying about alignment issues such as camber etc.?
    1.5", any lower will result in alignment issues.
    Phil

  9. #9
    LX User gtmst3's Avatar
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    Re: Springs and Antiroll Bars + What's Available

    how bad would it be with a 2 inch drop in the front and 1.9 in the rear ?

  10. #10
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    Re: Springs and Antiroll Bars + What's Available

    you will end up having camber issues in the front of the car... like half the people on this site all it really means is your use up tires more quickly

  11. #11
    LX User gtmst3's Avatar
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    Re: Springs and Antiroll Bars + What's Available

    thanks

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    3Geez Veteran smufguy's Avatar
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    Re: Springs and Antiroll Bars + What's Available

    Quote Originally Posted by gtmst3 View Post
    how bad would it be with a 2 inch drop in the front and 1.9 in the rear ?

    I will give it about 3K miles before you wear your front tires to the belt and about 4K on the rear tires.

    I suggest even with a 1" drop, get your car properly aligned and to do so, you will need a rear camber kit front and rear.

  13. #13
    3Geez Veteran MessyHonda's Avatar
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    Re: Springs and Antiroll Bars + What's Available

    Quote Originally Posted by smufguy View Post
    I will give it about 3K miles before you wear your front tires to the belt and about 4K on the rear tires.

    I suggest even with a 1" drop, get your car properly aligned and to do so, you will need a rear camber kit front and rear.
    i still havent had time to install my prelude arms because i need to get the washers and time to do it....i been driving my coupe for like 7k with out a alignment and the front tires dont even look cambered at all

    1989 Honda Accord LX-i
    B18c1 swap since 7/2011
    175whp and 132tq
    Redzone tuned

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    3Geez Veteran smufguy's Avatar
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    Re: Springs and Antiroll Bars + What's Available

    The Fronts are a little giving and with a 2.25" drop on my old progress, my camber was only -1.7Deg before alignment. But the rears were weird, with a 1.75" (i Believe), my rear camber was more than -2.25deg and the tires wore on the inside in matter of months to the belts and had to order brand new tires and put the rear camber kits on.

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    Re: Springs Available (including coilovers and antiroll bars)

    Quote Originally Posted by AZmike View Post


    COILOVERS

    Coilovers from these cars are compatible (maybe others).
    Accord 86-89
    Accord 90-97
    Civic 88-91
    sorry for n00b question, but does this imply that any coil overs (even cheap adjustable ebay ones) from these years are interchangable?

  16. #16


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    Re: Springs and Antiroll Bars + What's Available

    actually that's all that this implies. The sleeve style coilover setup (more accurately the coilover conversion or sleeve) works, but the full-bodied coilovers (including the shock) will not work as they are entirely different lengths. Welcome to the board. Pull up a chair, stay a while, this is one of the best resources out there for the older honda's, and hands-down the best (if not the only) for the 3G.
    -Mark D.


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    Re: Springs and Antiroll Bars + What's Available

    Quote Originally Posted by markmdz89hatch View Post
    actually that's all that this implies. The sleeve style coilover setup (more accurately the coilover conversion or sleeve) works, but the full-bodied coilovers (including the shock) will not work as they are entirely different lengths. Welcome to the board. Pull up a chair, stay a while, this is one of the best resources out there for the older honda's, and hands-down the best (if not the only) for the 3G.
    Excellent, thank you!

  18. #18
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    Re: Springs and Antiroll Bars + What's Available

    what about the 1geez? i have a 1980 sedan and i want to get hellaflush. you think i can heat the spring? or should i just cut it.

  19. #19


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    Re: Springs and Antiroll Bars + What's Available

    Quote Originally Posted by hondalove View Post
    what about the 1geez? i have a 1980 sedan and i want to get hellaflush. you think i can heat the spring? or should i just cut it.
    No, absolutely do not heat the springs. By doing this, you change their tensile strength and make them more brittle. You will be far more prone to cracking your springs if you heat them up.

    If you have no other choice, yes, a cut spring is far safer than a heated one. Be sure to replace all your shocks with new because the spring rate is increased when you cut the spring as well, so you'll need (at the very least) a new set of shocks to keep the car from bouncing down the road like a rubber ball.
    -Mark D.


  20. #20

    hammer3rd's Avatar
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    Re: Springs and Antiroll Bars + What's Available

    Has any one looked for some of this stuff lately. I checked on them and a few arent even offered anymore. Some please do a current writeou so the nubies can see what is really out there. Trying to do a mild build on my little blue 88 sedan and what I wamted to go with isnt even there anymore.
    Mike C in NC USA

  21. #21
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    Re: Springs and Antiroll Bars + What's Available

    ive got the 85 accord 3 door mine weighs around 2350 pounds with me in it... ive got moog springs on it right now but what i really want are springs with a slightly higher spring rate and 1/2 to 3/4 inch lower ride height... springs like that would give me right around 1 degree of negative camber without messing up the SAI there should be somewhere where that makes them or will make springs to customer specs if anybody can help me out that'd be great thanks

  22. #22
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    Re: Springs and Antiroll Bars + What's Available

    if you lower your car and it makes the camber excessively negative you can bring it back into spec by elongating the bolt holes for the upper strut mounts and moving them outwards... but you really need to know what your doing and have access to an alignment machine to check your work as you go

  23. #23

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    Re: Springs and Antiroll Bars + What's Available

    You can't do that on a 3rd gen, you'd have to slot the holes for the upper control arms instead.

  24. #24
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    Re: Springs and Antiroll Bars + What's Available

    i cant find any tie bars or camshafts for a 88 a20a3 anyone help?????

  25. #25
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    Re: Springs and Antiroll Bars + What's Available

    1988 Lxi owner since August 1995
    336k miles running strong!
    Now running E85.

    My Acura Type R front brake thread

    https://www.3geez.com/forum/showthrea...r+brake+option

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