Came across this on a Finnish forum, it's from Auto Bild, a German car magazine.
It's from a report on the quality of different car makes on a scale from 1 to 5, 1 being the best.
Came across this on a Finnish forum, it's from Auto Bild, a German car magazine.
It's from a report on the quality of different car makes on a scale from 1 to 5, 1 being the best.
Stereotypes born from history which never were really lived-down or corrected fuel that misconception for the most part.Originally Posted by detroit313
Quite a few domestics from the late 70s and early 80s were absolute abortions in terms of engineering, quality control, and performance; right when germany and asian started to get very good reputation/legacy in the US market, producing some of the best engineered cars to this day, even through the 90s it would be fair to say imports managed to maintain the lead in engineering/reliability.
What makes me nuts is how ridiculously hard-headed people are, on either side of the domestic/import fence! E.g. "I'd never own xxxx brand, they're total garbage and/or don't perform"...
Last edited by paul; 12-07-2008 at 08:32 AM.
1989 Accord LX-I - Brembo f.Rotors, Hawk HP+ pads, ATE fluid
1996 Mustang Cobra #404 - somewhat stock
said while pushing their rustang uphill towards home,after the 1)engine 2)transmission 3) other major component eithier: 1)blew up 2) fell out 3) caught fire 4) failed in some almost impossible badly engineering induced way
well stated Paul !
there are raunchy cars on both sides of the fence for sure! And once one model from a manufactor gets the rap, it's on...Asian cars of the 80's not many still on the road either.
The Tahoe hybrid mentioned, I still do not understand why they did not use a 5.3L engine in that instead of the 6.0 gas hog... 5.3 is capable of 23mpg highway easy.
If I remember, Toyota and GM actually SHARED the 2 mode hybrid system, as opposed to what the article claims.
Edit: I think it was actually Toyota and Chrysler, but alot of the "statistics" are simply opinions. The Top Gear guys laughed at the "shoddy fit and finish" of the Cadillac CTS
Last edited by Ichiban; 12-07-2008 at 12:21 PM.
ICHIBAN!
"Now, even more better!"
o rly?
i cant make fun of rustangs as much anymore.. when my trans failed i nthe coupe my buddys 89 5.0 PUSHED my broken car home...
Literally the exact same experience with my dads 2003 silverado. Went through 3 sets of ball joints, 2 power steering racks, 3 sets of rod ends. All covered under warranty thank god. LITERALLY at 31,000 miles his power steering box went out. He made several heated phone calls to Chevy of america and they pretty much told him "Sorry, your SOL" Got it fixed, sold that piece of shit, and bought an Altima.
where are the other american brands?Came across this on a Finnish forum, it's from Auto Bild, a German car magazine.
It's from a report on the quality of different car makes on a scale from 1 to 5, 1 being the best.
I really didn't read all of this thread but I would like to bring up one thing. Toyota has alot of recalls because they stepup and take care of issues when they are brought to their attention. I have a 99 Intrepid with the 2.7l V6 in it that Dodge knows is a POS, but instead of stepping up and remedying the issue they continue to stick their head in the sand and say that all of the issues are caused by poor maintence even when all scheduled maintence is done at THEIR DEALERSHIPS! So I don't think that a a recall is nessecarily a bad thing. My two cents....
88 LX 5spd l 32/36 weber l KYB GR-2's l Refreshed A20A3 engine l
I pulled my friends pos 80's mustang 5 miles home once,after something in the dizzy stripped out at IDLE. with the accord lol.
lol-wow dodge makes alot of POS! u ever seen a old neon on the streets with the paint peeling off and the engine sounding all warthefukout? now they makesrt-4
...If you're ever confused about anything in life... it probably has something to do with money$...
I haven't owned American car in my life so I don't know so much about American cars. But just wondering why they are not visible in foreign country such as in Europe where another big market is.
Once I was surprised to know that in 80s US complained that Japan was not importing enough US cars compare to US importing Japanese cars. The American cars are too big for parking in Japanese supermarket that is a size of peanut and most of all they need RHD car but they were not making anything like that. I thought that was amusing.
On the other hand, US owns great cultures like pop songs and movies that go beyond cultures and countries. Why can't they make cars like that? I am sure they can do it. Production line can do it - most of US model of our cars were made in US! Designer can do it - hatch was designed in California and same to Wonder Civic in the 80s (big hit in Japan and EU). But there must be something stop them from going "International" - I don't know what that is.
Last edited by epic1400cs; 12-08-2008 at 07:38 PM. Reason: my english
lol-wow dodge makes alot of POS! u ever seen a old neon on the streets with the paint peeling off and the engine sounding all warthefukout? now they make
Yes..POS...so much of a pos that they were amazingyly popular...and even won! (gasp) in autocross/roadracing etc in the mid-late 90's...
And the SRT-4...a 20k dollar car with sub 14 second quarter mile times...how horrific
At this point im pretty sure i could put a honda badge on a pile of my shit and you would get all excited over it because its a honda...
Opel and Ford.where are the other american brands?
FYI Opel here in the states is pretty much every single Saturn (ie. Aura, Sky, Vue, and Astra). In Australia (and NZ I think), and GB, it's Vauxhall.
-Mark D.
they were popular in roadracing and autocross because most of the roadrace cars had a lot of work to make them hold up,or were the spec roadrace model that was produced for a while. and even if you put a honda badge on a pos i can still tell it's not a honda lol, been around them too long.Yes..POS...so much of a pos that they were amazingyly popular...and even won! (gasp) in autocross/roadracing etc in the mid-late 90's...
And the SRT-4...a 20k dollar car with sub 14 second quarter mile times...how horrific
At this point im pretty sure i could put a honda badge on a pile of my shit and you would get all excited over it because its a honda...
Came across this on a Finnish forum, it's from Auto Bild, a German car magazine.
It's from a report on the quality of different car makes on a scale from 1 to 5, 1 being the best.
It technically isn't an 'american brand' but it is[one of] america's european brands: Opel is 100% GM since like 1929, though maybe not for long. There's talk of a buyout.where are the other american brands?
As for the e-mail:
It definately is biased. If j.d.power is survey-based than it could be as well. IMO:
1. Mercury, Cadillac, Lexus, & Buick. Vehicles of choice by the oldest MF'ers in the country. People that hardly ever drive, but slooowly when they do, and keep their vehicles impeccably maintained. Thats why they're in the top spot.
2. Everybody knows Volkswagen has sucked since the early 80's
3. About initial quality: "ooohh, that looks nice", anybody with a brain can do that job. I agree with VanillaSky on initial quality.
4. " "
5. Que?
6. " "
7. Chevy Aveo is a re-badged Daewoo (Korean)
8. The CTS runs on a sigma chassis, designed by Holden (Australian)
9. Its still a hybrid that gets less mpg's than my 26yr old Accord.
10. The Aura is a re-badged Opel Vectra (German)
11. The Malibu runs on the epsilon chassis, designed by GM-europe & Fiat. Consumer reports does show the Malibu as "above average" for reliability
12. Granted
13. Agreed
The thing is american vehicles [with the exception of truck/suv] aren't really american anymore. You cannot tell me there's no americans able to design a good chassis. They need to quit skeefin off their subsidaries, quit stifling their own designers, and quit giving themselves million dollar bonuses while their company fails!
I hate hearing people bash american vehicles. But, the auto industry here deserves it; at least the uber-greedy management/CEO's need their asses kicked, badly. I think if they want their bailout money they should be forced to go 3 rounds with a hungry Mike Tyson.
Edit: some of thats already been pointed out i see lol
The reason here is very simple. The american public keeps them from producing functional vehicles because an "american" would rather buy into fashion, than a practical piece of equipment. Here's proof:
-IFS on GM trucks; these trucks are no longer used as trucks, by men hauling shit for work. The soccer mom, driving her two kids to school in the 3/4 ton with the big solid front axle suspended by thick ass leaf packs, bitched about the rough ride.
"Why can't it be more carlike?" she said. Now it is, and you also got: more weight, the constant chance of wheels falling off, more cost, less user serviceability and a truck that's impossible to lift now, all because of a 600% increase in moving parts, each part which costs 10 times what the original parts that worked just fine cost.
But GM views it as gaining a completely new customer base for pickups, although they had to destroy the pickup to do it.
-Ford 6L Diesel; Ford was losing the HP wars versus Isuzu (GM) and Cummins (Dodge) running the outdated, but reliable 7.3L International engine. Detrimental, because no self respecting American buyer would ever buy the "least" powerful diesel truck. "Look how small my balls are, my pickup truck is slow!" So Ford forced International to push an experimental engine into production. What did buyers get? Better get good at pulling your cab, because it's the only way to change your head gaskets, at least every 50 000km. Maybe a big kevlar blanket will help keep the connecting rods inside the engine block.
-Chrysler: These guys just do stupid things for no reason. Nobody at their factories seems to be able to weld at all, evidenced by several class action suits stemming from things like lower A-arm mounts "just falling" off of crossmembers. And they gotta start owning up to the sludging problems in their engines. Also, pushrods and 2 valve wedge heads? Come on, this was state of the art in the 1930's, try multivalve heads that are actually designed to flow. Imports realized ages ago that this was the way to make lots of efficient power.
But no- the purists would totally reject any of that ricey crap, so the 360 pushrod truck block will live for another 40 years.
Last edited by Ichiban; 12-08-2008 at 08:23 PM.
ICHIBAN!
"Now, even more better!"
It depends how you define it. Opel is originally German but became part of GM group. Most of Europeans still think Opel is German, not American.
Ford yes, but as you can see the fact that we call it as "Ford UK", they tend to make and design their own cars that are very different from US counterpart. In a sense it is successful immigration of US company into UK though. In other words, it tells how complicated it is to survive in EU market.
Ok, seriously I tried to read through everything, but it seems like we're missing the point.
Everyone can 'blame' a bias as to why some 'moron' or 'illegitimate group like JD Power' could be so blind to call an 'american' car a good car.
Seriously though, let's look at GM, Ford and Chrysler/Dodge the same way we have for the past 20 to 30 years and say they're just the same 'ol crap they've been.
THAT'S WHAT THAT QUESTIONAIRE IS ALL ABOUT PEOPLE!
GM, Ford and Chrysler/Dodge have all made great strides in the past FEW (as in like 5 or less) years to boost the quality of their cars. Hence the reason the Malibu was recipient of many accolades last year. Although I don't have one, I have heard that it's a damn impressive car. Keeping on the GM train, we have Saturn. Has anyone actually driven a new Aura, Vue or Astra? Every one of them is damn impressive, especially when you compare them to the Saturn of yesteryear.
I can't speak for Ford on their quality, but it's been stated a number of times in various magazines that I frequently read, that they too have been paying closer attention to their quality standards.
To touch on a few specific points brought up. On an older episode of TopGear (ie. 2003 or 4) they did test drive the CTS-V, and while saying that the power was impressive, they didn't hold back on calling the interior quality junk and the ride like a toboggan. Now, I had been in the market for a CTS-V for the past 2 years, but after riding in an '06 I was not very impressed, and agreed with everything Jeremy said. HOWEVER, did anyone notice that the CTS was redone for '08? ...and that there's no '08 CTS-V? ...that's because GM/Cadillac went back to the drawing board on the V series and tossed all the old crap out the window. The newest V has chalked up the fastest time for a production 4DR sedan at the Nürburgring track in German. That means it's destroyed the M5, AMG S-series, and anything else you can come up with. How's quality? Read any review on the new CTS and you'll get your unanimous answer.
For the ignorant claim of why the big three are knocking on the fed's window for a hand-out: (Let's preface this by saying it's part of my job to understand the core finances of distressed companies such as these.) Is it because their products suck? Actually, uhmm.... NO!
It's because the big three are so heavily burdened by the labor unions (not labor laws... ..UNIONS) that have insisted on painfully expensive insurance, retirement, long-term contracts, pension, dissability, exclusivity contracts, etc, etc, etc. Not only that, but the executive/upper management 'incentives' are far too high. ...Now one of the real biggies: Their dealer network. Think of this as having a Dunkin Donuts (DD) on one block getting 1000 customers a day. Now build another DD one block down. Do you expect that to just breed another 1000 customers and the other store maintain the 1000 per day too? NOPE. Having a convenient dealer is one thing, but having an over-saturation of dealers just becomes a HUGE overhead and expense. Take a look at the specs on how many Chevy dealers there are in the US. Now compare that to Honda dealerships. All of these (except the corporate paychecks) are due to the desire to have so many americans employed by/supported by the big three, and for them to return the favor by keeping them 'made in america'. ...Ironically, it's what's killing them. Hundreds of under (or poorly) performing dealerships need to be flat out closed down. These 'pension for life, or benefits for life' deals need to be eliminated. The labor unions need to sit back at the table with the big three execs and renegotiate the contracts to be mutually beneficial. Only then, can any of the big three reduce their burn-rate to less then their rate of revenue generation. Of course a down economy doesn't help auto-sales either, but that's regardless.
Now a few years ago if someone told me that I'd be seriously considering a Saturn as an alternative to a Honda Civic, I'd tell them they're an idiot. However, if they told me I'd be considering an Opel as a alternative, I'd be curious just how they suggest that come true being that Opel stopped being imported to the US in the late 70's. Now, I have to admit, that Astra is a great little car, and the Ecotec is one seriously impressive little 4-banger.
sorry, it's getting late and I have to end this seemingly endless rant. i hope someone takes the time to at least skim it over and see some helpful info in it.
Last edited by markmdz89hatch; 12-08-2008 at 08:45 PM.
-Mark D.
Agreed. Opel is just owned by GM, and is not 'american' by definition of 'being made in america' ...but that's like us (in the states) calling a Honda Accord a 'japanese' car, given that all but their motors are made in Ohio. But solely for reason of the sourced article, and bearing in mind the origin of the parent company, I'll go out on a limb and bundle Saturn (our Opel) in the 'domestic/american car' bin. I don't agree with the label, but again, just for the sake of argument that all GM cars are 'crap american cars'.
-Mark D.
thank you !
To add to this, the largest downfall of quailty in American cars right this moment (in my educated opinion) is the subcontracting of parts and assemblys to China. GM being the worst. Not the design or engineering of the cars themselves. They bid out some of these parts and the win goes to the lowest bidder, and yes some corporate corruption could be involved in the lack of quality control over those sub-assemblies, electronics, and other parts.
...and now, my very own senator, one Mr.Christopher Dodd (I'm in CT, and he's a CT senator) gets the bonehead of the year award for calling out Wagner and saying that he's got to be fired, and that'll save GM. OK Mr. I'm a politician and wouldn't be able to run a dry-cleaner, let alone a multi-billion dollar automotive giant, but I'll call Wagner a moron and put his head on the chopping block.
I agree with Cord, Epic, Roo, and anyone else in that camp. It's extremely difficult to call any car American, British, Japanese, etc because all of them are a congolmerate of parts, brains, design, etc from all corners of the world.
As pointed out Holden (sorry, in a previous post I mistakenly said Vauxhaull in AU) is a great car in AU. Opel makes superb chassis'. Daewoo is a great Korean brand for what it is. All are GM owned. So why not use what works, what has good quality, what has a proven track record for quality and reliability, and employ that for use in a Chevy or Caddy, etc. Great idea. Guess who's at least partially to thank for that?: Wagner. Go ahead Dodd, use that in your argument for his removal too.
Close down some friggin dealerships already. Sometimes you have to lose a few to save a many. Sound like a familiar idea? ...that's because it's true. It's not pretty, but it's reality.
Are the executive's high salaries to blame? NO. They may make 6-10 million a year, but to put it in perspective, GM has a burn rate well north of 13 BILLION per month. How much of that 'burn' is carrying dealerships that haven't sold a car in a month? A good healthy portion of it.
Is it corporates fault that they have not forced the closure of dealerships to consolidate and lessen the burn? Partially, but to reiterate, the labor contracts that are so burdening and expensive (which are not as apparent in non-US markets) are doing a great job of keeping those much-needed changes from happening because they need to protect Jeffy's Podunk Chevy dealer from closing because they need to keep paying Jeffy, his 2 sons that are also 'salesmen', and every other 'salesman' they have working for them only to play solitaire and IM their buddies all day because they haven't had a customer, let alone sold a car, in 3 weeks.
Fire them, close the dealership, sell the building and/or cancel the ground lease. Let Jeffy, his 2 sons, and the handful of others actually get a job where they have to work (God forbid) and stop the bleed from that dealership.
-Mark D.
I am misunderstanding this dealership thing. I thought those were franchised and privately owned, or a least a lot of them are. (no pun, lol)
The largest GM dealer in the southeast US folded just two months ago, for a variety of reasons, and that speaks volumes. Bill Heard Chevy, is being sued by the State of Georgia for fraud, but beside that they saw the writing on the wall. They had huge inventories, and it was my understanding that the parent company does set limitations on stock for dealerships they control.
It seems to me that the Government buys a lot of these vehicles. Not enought to keep the plants going but I do know that back in the 80's Chrysler may have survived because of that;think of all the Dodge vans, trucks, Aries, Diplomats, Furys, blah blah blah that were on GSA contracts back then. You hardley saw a Fed in a Ford or Chevy in those days.
they are franchised and privately owned, but the parent still has incentives to dealerships, floats their overhead expenses, and floats the cost of the vehicles to the dealerships to give them stock.
The only reason there's a knock on the fed's door right now is because of the tightening of credit. GM has had an ongoing problem of spending way more then they need to, but when the economy was booming, they were taking in enough revenue to cover their over inflated expenses. Now that things are tightening up, they're not selling the volume they use to. ...which requires them to dip into their credit lines for coverage. Trouble is, due to the economy consolidation we're in now, credit is tightening up heavily. Which includes credit extensions to GM. They've been dipping into credit lines for longer then any of us have been alive, but now that those lines have tightened up, they're having more and more trouble doing so.
The dealerships are not only protected by contracts, but by each state they're in. All states feel the need to protect their local small businesses, and as you stated, these are all privately owned franchised dealerships. ...that's where the state's desire to protect them comes in. Trouble is, the state protecting them, is making the parent have to float them even more, and without the option to force their closure. The state is not in favor of GM closing one of their dealerships because it'll put one of their 'small biz' owners out of biz.
Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard-place.
...remember, that's just a piece of this though. We cannot forget the fact that labor contracts have 'negotiated' with GM that they pay the pensions, retirements, and benefits of their employees for life. Way beyond what even the government does for the majority of their employees. That's quite expensive too.
...and look at American Axle. Their uaw employees went on strike because they didn't want to take a pay-cut that American Axle wanted to hand down, which was essentially proposed as a way for them to keep their jobs. I'll take a cut as an alternative to losing my job. ...but Gettlefinger (UAW [a union] pres) said, NO, we'll keep them employed, and you'll keep them at their pay (even if it means you're guaranteed to lose your job in the long run).
Take a peek: http://www.mlive.com/business/index....impact_wi.html
Trouble is, because there's also a contract stating AA's exclusivity with GM for a source for their axles, GM couldn't just say faak you AA, we're just going to go to your competitor to get our axles made.
...see where I'm going? Everyone wants to protect everyone, and no-one wants to take responsibility for themselves, nor take a haircut when it's needed for the better of everyone involved.
Check this 'lil tid bit out though: Suppose GM files bankruptcy. They get their extended debt liquidated, many of their contracts void, they are able to restructure as needed, and come back with a vengeance. ...but it'll strike such a blow to the american psyche that it may help cripple the economy a lil' mo'. Bankruptcy does not necessarily mean any of these three go away, although it can mean that. ...it also opens the door for a host of other problems that I don't want to get into.
My suggestion as a right-now solution for GM: Let the feds just extend them a loan, a credit line, whatever you might want to call it. ...but with a mandate that they get Gettlefinger to the table with Wagner to renegotiate these bs contracts in order to keep the doors open. ...then with the blessing from the fed's (because after all, now the feds have some skin in the game w/ GM), let GM evaluate and close or restructure, as necessary, the poorly performing or 'grandfathered in' dealerships without the fight from the dealerships represented state.
The fed's then, as an economic 'stimulation', should allow heavy tax breaks/incentives for new car purchases, and with GM's new-found clarity, and the price of oil just 'tanking' (pun intended) the larger vehicle inventories should start to move a little more. ...then just let the products sell themselves, as everyone can claim to be better then their competitor in some way/shape/or form. Then the fate of GM would be in the hands of the public's purchasing, which IMO is where it should be. ...not in the buracratic red tape that's choking on it's own stupidity.
Last edited by markmdz89hatch; 12-09-2008 at 08:40 AM.
-Mark D.
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