EGR Lift Sensor (Exhaust Gas Recirculation)

[watch4it]

If you follow the wires from the plug, where do they go? We're trying to diagnose the CVC or the EGR Control Solenoid Valve, so one of those should be getting power. If you're wiring up something else, then we need to do it differently.

Iam wireing it by the colors stated
Red to the neg on the battery
Blk/yel to the positive on the battery
NO Matter where they are in the sequence in the plug.
All the smilies apply to ME NOT TO you. Hope you arnent taken them wrong.

The wires go to the 2 electical components in the black box. Ignition control solenoid valve and the Bypass control solenoid valve.
Thks for all your hard work!!
Watch4it

[ecogabriel]

I do not know if this would help, but I went outside and took a picture of my black box and the wires.
It is from a 1986 Accord LX-i automatic; I took it with the connector clip pointed upwards as it goes in the black box.

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/6386/fscn0706.jpg

[watch4it]

I do not know if this would help, but I went outside and took a picture of my black box and the wires.
It is from a 1986 Accord LX-i automatic; I took it with the connector clip pointed upwards as it goes in the black box.

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/6386/fscn0706.jpg

Wow what nice Pics you guys can take!! My wires look diff maybey cause iam a standard trans? No i take that Back that is where my red and my blk/yel are located. Same locations and same colors in that order But you are showing the Male end of the 2P connection or the female end that is in the metal mounting brkt? OOPS I always open mouth and insert foot. I see the female down in the lower left corner of your pic!!

[watch4it]

That canister you mentioned has three hose connections (correct me if I'm wrong I have not seen it in a while).
One goes to the vacuum modulator (the round thing to the left of the canister). Another connector goes to a solenoid valve (metallic with two connectors) and the third one is hose #16 that goes to the EGR valve.
With engine running, if you disconnect the plastic canister from the vacuum modulator there would be no vacuum in it.
As for the vacuum modulator, you should expect to see vacuum between 6 and 8 inHG; 5 inHg is enough to fully open the EGR valve.
If you connect the vacuum modulator to the canister (the 90-degree bent hose) AND plug the hose going to the solenoid valve, you should see vacuum in #16. Actually, with engine running the EGR will open, idle will become rough and engine will most likely stop. If that works then the vacuum part of the EGR (save for the solenoid valve) works.
The solenoid valve can be tested applying battery voltage directly; it should make a clicking noise if it works; make sure that when you apply voltage to it, it is already disconnected from the car's wiring. If it works it will close, vacuum will open EGR valve and idle will be rough or engine will stop.

it seems you are getting closer to discovering what is wrong with the EGR system; hope the other stuff works out OK too.

Yes your right three connections on the canister. two eletrical switches in the box wired to the female plug on the blk/box, ignition control and bypass control solenoid valves.
Thanks.

[ecogabriel]

The photo is from the male connector in the wire maze. It plugs into the female one in the black box.

I took it from the back so you could see the wires' colors as clear as possible. Sorry I could not pull them out more my wires are so f... hardened and brittle.

[Dr_Snooz]

Iam wireing it by the colors stated
Red to the neg on the battery
Blk/yel to the positive on the battery
NO Matter where they are in the sequence in the plug.
All the smilies apply to ME NOT TO you. Hope you arnent taken them wrong.

The wires go to the 2 electical components in the black box. Ignition control solenoid valve and the Bypass control solenoid valve.
Thks for all your hard work!!
Watch4it

So your jumper wires are not powering the right modules. Ignore the wire colors and run your jumpers to the positions on the connector shown in the manual (p.12-80). Take a pic before powering it so we can make sure you aren't about to roast anything.

[watch4it]

Dr.
Can I test the ignition control solenoid and the bypass control solenoid seperate from the plug, by just running battery power to them as ecogabriel post #72 Stated. I kind of see what we are checking with the test now. Ya know the neebone connected to the ankle bone connected to the hip bone etc etc.
Can I check for continuity in the plug wires to which ever solenoid Iam trying to test first to make shure I have the right wires connected in the plug? Since color code seems to make no difference just plug wire location! Iam ready to make the move, so I can quit pestering everyone.
Thanks again: watch4it

[ecogabriel]

Dr.
Can I test the ignition control solenoid and the bypass control solenoid seperate from the plug, by just running battery power to them as ecogabriel post #72 Stated. I kind of see what we are checking with the test now. Ya know the neebone connected to the ankle bone connected to the hip bone etc etc.
Can I check for continuity in the plug wires to which ever solenoid Iam trying to test first to make shure I have the right wires connected in the plug? Since color code seems to make no difference just plug wire location! Iam ready to make the move, so I can quit pestering everyone.
Thanks again: watch4it

I would say keep walking the manual with snooz. I am walking this from my memory after reading the manual and online stuff on how EGR systems work. I assumed (in my case right) that wiring would be OK but you may not assume that.
Best of all, you are learning out of this experience; that's the best part of it.

[watch4it]

Well I checked out the colors of my wires and where the go to.
1. the EGR solenoid has 1 post Orange & 1 post blk/yel
2. the Ignition Control solenoid has 1 post Red & 1 post blk/yel
3. the Bypass control solenoid has 1 post Yel/grn & 1 post blk/yel

Fom the 2P connection that the Dr said to use there is a splitter and a coupler that divides the blk/yel wire to go to all of the devices. My 2P plug has a lower row of (3) connections: Red, ylw/grn, orng. The top row is (1) connection in the top right corner and it is Blk/yel. I had my wife look at the colors to get them confirmed! Plug from open end clip retainer at top looks something like
_
_ _ _ (d--It can't get the dashes to line up, the dash on the top row is on the right corner not the left)with the top corner being the blk/yellow.
I did jump the EGR control valve and it makes the selenoid clicking noise so took the top with the vacume hoses off and watched the plunger go up and down, all ports seemed clean.
One port or hose #23 goes to the drivers side of the injectors plenum chamber the other hose #18 goes to the air cleaner neck before the intake valve on the injector.
If I dissconect the elbow hose to the canister from the CVC valve I get 0 vacuum to the EGR control Solenoid valve. The elbow hose on the CVC DOES have more that 8" hg vacuum to it through the CVC valve from hose #24 which comes from on the front of the plenium chamber.
I don't see how I can get a vacuum reading off of the canister with the vacuum supply disconnected But that is the way it tests no vacuum to the canister with the hose disconnected from the CVC.
I did check continuity of the wires to the EGR control Solenoid before I ran the check That was the blk/yel & Orange
watch4it

[Dr_Snooz]

Dr.
Can I test the ignition control solenoid and the bypass control solenoid seperate from the plug, by just running battery power to them as ecogabriel post #72 Stated. I kind of see what we are checking with the test now. Ya know the neebone connected to the ankle bone connected to the hip bone etc etc.
Can I check for continuity in the plug wires to which ever solenoid Iam trying to test first to make shure I have the right wires connected in the plug? Since color code seems to make no difference just plug wire location! Iam ready to make the move, so I can quit pestering everyone.
Thanks again: watch4it

The EGR system is driven by operating conditions. Just because a part does something when you power it, doesn't mean it's doing the right thing under the right conditions. Of course, if you get the hang of things and want to move forward, then by all means, do so.

So yeah, yours is different. I'm going to go with the way you connected it originally: blk/yellow and red. Go ahead and power it. Remember that you want the engine at temp when you do this. Let us know what you find out.

[watch4it]

The EGR system is driven by operating conditions. Just because a part does something when you power it, doesn't mean it's doing the right thing under the right conditions. Of course, if you get the hang of things and want to move forward, then by all means, do so.

So yeah, yours is different. I'm going to go with the way you connected it originally: blk/yellow and red. Go ahead and power it. Remember that you want the engine at temp when you do this. Let us know what you find out.

So it will be the ignition control selonoid that we want to test first. That is what the red& blk/yel go too? and thats from the 2P plug you circled in the photo.

[Dr_Snooz]

Well, the blk/yellow goes to everything, so the circuit is going to be completed by the red wire. It should only power the CVC...

....or a fireball will engulf your house. I'm not sure which. Just kidding. It should be fine.

[watch4it]

Well, the blk/yellow goes to everything, so the circuit is going to be completed by the red wire. It should only power the CVC...

....or a fireball will engulf your house. I'm not sure which. Just kidding. It should be fine.

Ok I'll try it in the morning. I have an 8:00 am appointment but it should only last about an hr and a half.
Power the CVC?? it is just a vacuum pod there are no wires running to it.
But if red & blk/yel give me the fire ball I'll just use the ins money and we wont have to fix this old antique.
Watch4it

[ecogabriel]

If your EGR solenoid clicks when powered then it may be working OK. If you want to know precisely, disconnect #16 from the canister inside the black box and attach a vacuum gauge; make sure the other two ports of the canister are connected where they should go. With the engine running, power the EGR solenoid and you should see CVC vaccuum in the canister too
Better yet, if you have a tee connector place it between the canister and the #16 and attach the vacuum to the tee; that way when you power your EGR solenoid vaccuum should reach the EGR valve. The engine should run rough or stop when the EGR valve works.
I wonder if you have tested the EGR valve for holding vacuum; if it has a punctured diaphragm it may not open as much as it should (if at all) and then set a code 12. The test I did only tests for a non-working plunger sensor.

Don't give up on an otherwise working car; problems with emissions systems are common and solvable. Besides, our cars are so f... good that are fuel efficient even after 20+ years

[ecogabriel]

I am looking at the 89 manual and there are slight differences with what you see in 86-87 black box. For instance, the solenoid valve in the manual looks like those used in the A/C idle booster; the one in 86-87 box is different and in one end is connected to hose #17 that goes to the air pipe between the filter box and the throttle body. Other than that, the systems look like the same.

Other than that, looking at the diagram the system works when the ECU grounds the solenoid. 12v should be present in one of the solenoid electrical connectors with engine running.

[Dr_Snooz]

Don't give up on an otherwise working car; problems with emissions systems are common and solvable. Besides, our cars are so f... good that are fuel efficient even after 20+ years

Especially when your vacuum is so good. That car's a keeper.

[watch4it]

Just in case Watch4it, did you check the fuses? Does the digital clock work before this happened?
One day I was doing some checkup when the engine died. It would crank, but it would not start. No PGM_FI light, no blinking ECU codes under the seat... .
After a few minutes I started fiddling with the fuses under the dash. One of them was labeled either ECU or EFI (can't remember now) but it was blown; I replaced it, and the car sprang back to life (and the clock too). The clock (and the dashboard light) should have sprang something on my mind but somehow it did not.
If you jump wires and the car runs, I would look for blown fuses.
The 89 black box probably has more wires than the 87 because some other stuff is in there that the 86-87 did not have; vapor canister solenoid (another emissions device), and second intake runner solenoid are two of the things that 88-89 had that 86-87 did not (or had a different implementation). Still, the 89 service manual should be useful for EGR troubleshooting
HOpe it helps

all the stuff in the car was functional and I thank you for that slap!! found 15 amp fuze blown after checkin, now back to PGM_FI light problem.

[watch4it]

Vacuum only reaches the EGR valve when the solenoid closes; otherwise #16 is at atmosphere pressure through #17 hose. #17 attaches between the air filter and throttle body.
One thing I did when testing my code 12 was plug #17 at idle; idle would become rough and eventually the engine would stop as the EGR valve actuate.
#17 is connected to the EGR solenoid (a cylinder-shaped metallic thing with two hose connectors -one on each end); and the other end of the solenoid goes... to a plastic cylinder inside the box if I remember right. When the EGR solenoid closes, then the vacuum produced by the flying-saucer thing would actuate the EGR valve through that plastic cylinder.

If he has vacuum inside the box, then the next step would be whether the disk-shaped thing (can't recall the f... name) inside the box provides steady vacuum (6-8 in HG) for accurate EGR operation.

Oh, and I used the 1989 manual for the testing; the EGR system is identical. Remember, though that there are other things inside the black box and those may differ from 86-87 to 88-89.

Please check with the manual as I'm writing from memory (I have not opened the black box in quite a while) Hope this helps.

I may go to the jy tomorrow morning so I might go hunting for a working EGR if you eventually need one. They run cheap if one knows how to find a working one... let me know.
I also have the flying-saucer thingy, the plastic cylinder and probably the EGR solenoid valve too. I took them from another 3G just in case and I remember they worked -swapped back and forth with mine. I have no use for any of those; I only have to find them.

That reminds me that I should have posted how to diagnose the EGR valve itself...

and on mine when I pinched off #17 it did not make any diff in the way the engine set there running. The manual said to do it the second time so I did and it still had no effect!
I have steady vacuum to the CVC valve from hose #24 and it comes out the little elbow hose on cvc valve. Hmm thats funny it dosent register on the other conections on the air chamber??? which is hooked into the EGR control Valve.

[watch4it]

ecogabriel: Did It sound right the way I tested my EGR Valve?
Hose #16 comes out of the air chamber as One of the connections and one goes to the EGR control solenoid.
I have 20+ in hg to the elbow hose on the CVC Valve and that hose connects to the Air Chamber with 2 outlets, 1. hose #16 to EGR valve
2. goes to the Purge cut-off solenoid valve. I get no vacuum readings out of those 2 outlets on the air chamber using a vacuum gage. I can suck on the inlet that comes from the CVC to the chamber and see that it makes vacuum on the hose outlet for #16 and the one to the purge cut off solenoid. By holding my finger tips on the outlets lifting them off and on.
Is there a test for the CVC valve?? I checked this one against my old one and they checked different but I don't remember, I would have to test them again. But the reason I changed it was because of the difference and that was the step in the diagnosis I was at so I thought my old one was bad. But it changed nothing.

Brain shortage::: With the engine at op temp and everything hooked up STOCK when ya rev the engine it activates the Ignition control solenoid valve. You know throttle, rump, rump, rump. each time, the valve clicks but none of the others do!

[watch4it]

I have retraced through my posts and edited them as to what I remember were the effects at each stage. Maybe there is a clue in there for someone cause I shure ain't swimmin very well. My stepfather and I used to go bass fishing together. And after yrs of doing this I found out he couldn't swim. I asked him "what would you do if the boat sank", He said "Oh I'd sink to the bottom and just walk over to the shore."
Thanks again for puttin up with me I will be sunk if I cant get this to go guess i will have to learn to walk again although I think I'll avoid the water)
watch4it

[ecogabriel]

Ummm... you gave me a bit to read... hang on a sec so I can finish reading...

[ecogabriel]

ecogabriel: Did It sound right the way I tested my EGR Valve?
Hose #16 comes out of the air chamber as One of the connections and one goes to the EGR control solenoid.
I have 20+ in hg to the elbow hose on the CVC Valve and that hose connects to the Air Chamber with 2 outlets, 1. hose #16 to EGR valve
2. goes to the Purge cut-off solenoid valve. I get no vacuum readings out of those 2 outlets on the air chamber using a vacuum gage. I can suck on the inlet that comes from the CVC to the chamber and see that it makes vacuum on the hose outlet for #16 and the one to the purge cut off solenoid. By holding my finger tips on the outlets lifting them off and on.
Is there a test for the CVC valve?? I checked this one against my old one and they checked different but I don't remember, I would have to test them again. But the reason I changed it was because of the difference and that was the step in the diagnosis I was at so I thought my old one was bad. But it changed nothing.

Brain shortage::: With the engine at op temp and everything hooked up STOCK when ya rev the engine it activates the Ignition control solenoid valve. You know throttle, rump, rump, rump. each time, the valve clicks but none of the others do!

You measured vacuum at the outlet of CVC valve and read 8inHG, right? If yes, that sounds right.
Going to the canister that attaches to it, one hose comes from the CVC, another one goes to the EGR valve itself (#16), and the third one should go to the solenoid valve (metallic) that in turn communicates through hose #17 with the air pipe that goes from the air filter to the throttle body.
(I am working this from memory here, the 1898 USDM manual has similar components but the implementation is slightly different)
The way this works is like this: with the EGR solenoid open, there is no vacuum in the canister because air is being sucked up through #17. When the solenoid closes, there is vacuum in the canister and it reaches (via #16) the EGR valve, opening it.
Plugging #17 with engine running (and all the hoses connected in their places) should then work "as if" the EGR solenoid is closed and thus opening EGR valve which should affect engine idle speed if not stopping it.

How to check CVC valve? What I did was keep engine running and attach a vacuum gauge to it; you should read about 6-8 inHG.
If you have a piece of vacuum hose, I would do another "test": from the CVC outlet I would run that spare hose straight to the EGR valve. if the engine stalls or runs rough then your CVC works. Perhaps it is the plastic canister that has something funny with it.

[ecogabriel]

Brain shortage::: With the engine at op temp and everything hooked up STOCK when ya rev the engine it activates the Ignition control solenoid valve. You know throttle, rump, rump, rump. each time, the valve clicks but none of the others do!

So the engine is at operating temperature and the cold advance solenoid is clicking???? Ummm... I heard mine clicking with engine cold, but not once it is warmed up. Did the fans come on? (that is the check that engine is at operating temperature). There may be something else going on, but let's keep this simple for now and focus on the EGR system only

[watch4it]

You measured vacuum at the outlet of CVC valve and read 8inHG, right? If yes, that sounds right.
Going to the canister that attaches to it, one hose comes from the CVC, another one goes to the EGR valve itself (#16), and the third one should go to the solenoid valve (metallic) that in turn communicates through hose #17 with the air pipe that goes from the air filter to the throttle body.
(I am working this from memory here, the 1898 USDM manual has similar components but the implementation is slightly different)
The way this works is like this: with the EGR solenoid open, there is no vacuum in the canister because air is being sucked up through #17. When the solenoid closes, there is vacuum in the canister and it reaches (via #16) the EGR valve, opening it.
Plugging #17 with engine running (and all the hoses connected in their places) should then work "as if" the EGR solenoid is closed and thus opening EGR valve which should affect engine idle speed if not stopping it.

How to check CVC valve? What I did was keep engine running and attach a vacuum gauge to it; you should read about 6-8 inHG.
If you have a piece of vacuum hose, I would do another "test" the following: from the CVC outlet I would run that hose straight to the EGR valve. if the engine stalls or runs rough then your CVC works. Perhaps it is the plastic canister that has something funny with it.

Let me continue reading and see what else is there

i

Yes i have 8-9 in hg at CVC valve and my hoses are connected like you stated. The air chamber kinda seem plugged up, I mean air didnt pass through it real easy or alot but it did pass through it. None of the other valves seem to activate. the only one is the ignition control solenoid when you rev the engine.

[ecogabriel]

and on mine when I pinched off #17 it did not make any diff in the way the engine set there running. The manual said to do it the second time so I did and it still had no effect!
I have steady vacuum to the CVC valve from hose #24 and it comes out the little elbow hose on cvc valve. Hmm thats funny it dosent register on the other conections on the air chamber??? which is hooked into the EGR control Valve.

from #24 you should see basically intake vacuum (about 20inHG... you said 22 right?)
If the CVC provides steady vacuum (6-8 inHG) then the CVC is OK.
With all the connections in the canister if you remove the one that goes to the EGR solenoid and attach a vacuum you should see vacuum there and (and the EGR valve working and probably killing the engine). To see vacuum where #16 attaches, you need first to plug the other canister connector (the one going to the solenoid) or plugging #17

Do you have a spare canister to swap? And just in case, if you have kept the other black box untouched at this point make sure that the hose connections are done the same way.