Wanna go with bigger wheels? Better get aftermarket studs!

[89T]

the only time the center of the hub holds it is if you had something like Hildebrand knockoff centers or something else without lug nuts. the lug nuts and lug studs hold the wheel on the car..

i don't think anyone disagrees that the wheel is held on by the lugs.
what we are disagreeing on is the role of the center bore.


your wheel bore is supposed to center on the Honda hub perfect on center, your lug nuts are supposed to hold the wheel onto the hub, its that simple, they each have their 1 job to do.

however, when the center bore of your aftermarket wheel is larger than
the Honda hub, your lug nuts are now performing double duty, trying to hold the wheels onto the car and center them at the same time. This puts too much stress on the lugs and bolts and they vibrate, the bolts will eventually break off one by one.

some research:

The center bore relates to the size of the hole in the center of the rim. When purchasing aftermarket rims, it is wise to ensure the center bore is the same diameter as that of the hub, this is termed as being hub-centric and ensures the rim is perfectly centered. If the center bore is larger, you should purchase a hub-ring in order to ensure the rim is properly centered and hub-centric. Not utilizing a hub-ring means you are lug-centric and solely utilizing the lugs to center the wheels instead of the lugs and the hub.
Hub-Centricity







When automobile manufacturers design a vehicle, they utilize hub-centric wheels so that:

• The wheels are positioned very precisely on the car.
• The possibility of shifting while being mounted is minimized.

Lug-Centricity







The alternative to a hub-centric wheel is known as lug-centric.

• The wheels are located solely by the lug nuts rather than the wheel hub.
• As the lug nuts are tightened, they adjust the wheel's position relative to the hub, thus centering the wheel.
• Properly torqued, the lug nuts continue to keep the wheel centered as the vehicle is driven.

Lug-centric wheels require extra care in mounting on a vehicle. When using shouldered nuts instead of tapered nuts, take extra care to properly locate the wheel. Never use air tools to install high performance wheels! Always use a torque wrench and follow accepted tightening procedures.

I see people all the time with the wrong type of lug nut on their wheels and wonder how long till they bust off the studs.

i agree with this mainly because i have done this before.


now with all that behind, what i was looking for i did not find.
but lets see if i can explain what i can see from a mechanical point of view.
this is not an argument this is a discussion.

from my point of view the center bore being up sized or larger than stock
relies on the lugs to center and hold the wheels on the car. When you hit a say a pot hole (in bullards case was already weakened by 25% because of a pre-existing broken stud) and if it hit hard enough to move the wheel in any way shape or form the wheel and rotor at the stud point will act like a shear and literally cut the studs off at that point. my guess is that is what happened in bullards case. Refer back to the pics and look where the studs broke off or shall i say cut off?. (the rotor is hanging loose, notice the retaining screws are missing)
with that being said if the center bore of the rim matched the hub like its supposed to the hub would have taken the brunt of the force and kept the wheel from moving on the studs thus not shearing them off...

the funny thing is that i have never heard, seen, or read that a stock wheel has caused or been involved in a broken stud issue of this sort....

[thegreatdane]

judging by the center of that hub, it's newer chinese garbage.

+1

[bullard123]

Might as well install these while im at it

[bullard123]

Anyone know what set these bushings are a part of?

[Rendon LX-i]

thats sway bar endlinks...you can get a set of energy suspension off a 93/94 civic delslow lol....but it fits right in and you feel a difference in body roll...

[bullard123]

thats sway bar endlinks...you can get a set of energy suspension off a 93/94 civic delslow lol....but it fits right in and you feel a difference in body roll...

Ok cool thanks I will buy the set and replace them while im at it

[bullard123]

Are these the right ones? Just wanna make sure before I buy them
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Energ...Q5fAccessories

[lostforawhile]

i don't think anyone disagrees that the wheel is held on by the lugs.
what we are disagreeing on is the role of the center bore.


your wheel bore is supposed to center on the Honda hub perfect on center, your lug nuts are supposed to hold the wheel onto the hub, its that simple, they each have their 1 job to do.

however, when the center bore of your aftermarket wheel is larger than
the Honda hub, your lug nuts are now performing double duty, trying to hold the wheels onto the car and center them at the same time. This puts too much stress on the lugs and bolts and they vibrate, the bolts will eventually break off one by one.

some research:


i agree with this mainly because i have done this before.


now with all that behind, what i was looking for i did not find.
but lets see if i can explain what i can see from a mechanical point of view.
this is not an argument this is a discussion.

from my point of view the center bore being up sized or larger than stock
relies on the lugs to center and hold the wheels on the car. When you hit a say a pot hole (in bullards case was already weakened by 25% because of a pre-existing broken stud) and if it hit hard enough to move the wheel in any way shape or form the wheel and rotor at the stud point will act like a shear and literally cut the studs off at that point. my guess is that is what happened in bullards case. Refer back to the pics and look where the studs broke off or shall i say cut off?. (the rotor is hanging loose, notice the retaining screws are missing)
with that being said if the center bore of the rim matched the hub like its supposed to the hub would have taken the brunt of the force and kept the wheel from moving on the studs thus not shearing them off...

the funny thing is that i have never heard, seen, or read that a stock wheel has caused or been involved in a broken stud issue of this sort....

if your wheel bore is bigger then the center and you are running quality aftermarket studs such as arp, I don't see there being a problem. if you look at the strength of the arp studs vs. the factory or something like the chinese made autoparts store studs, there is no comparison. to break these arp studs you would probably have to be jumping the car or something. and figure they run them on rally cars which do jump,and they still hold up. they difference in strength is huge, there is no reason NOT to run them. when i ordered mine from summit they actually came out just a little bit more then cheap studs locally.

[Ichiban]

You guys are both wrong. The hub bore or taper/radius on the lugs simply center the rim on the hub while it is being tightened. As soon as the lugs are tightened, the clamping force generated by the studs and nuts holds the wheel to the hub by friction. If you want to see the calculations for the forces generated, just ask. They are enormous.

After the wheel is torqued, the studs or hub upset/bore do not control ANY radial forces. Think about it. The shear stress imposed by normal driving will decimate 4 little M12x1.5 studs or whatever they are, but since they are plenty strong in a tensile regard, they're used to make lots of clamping force that holds the wheel to the hub.

Example:

Heavy trucks (ie semi's, buses) use two types of wheel centering:

Stud pilot: The lugs are radiused to match the profile of the bolt circle. The hub bore in the rim has no contact whatsoever with the hub itself. Radial load is carried by the friction created by the clamping force of the lugs/studs.

Hub pilot: As you guessed, the hub centers the rim on the bore. Once the wheels are tightened, again, clamping force and friction take over.

Edit: Bullards studs sheared off. He either exceeded the elastic limit of the steel studs by overtightening the lug studs, or he exceeded the shear strength by undertigtening, which allowed the wheel to move and apply a side load to the studs.

[bullard123]

Ok so Im down to the hub assembly. I've taken the axle nut off and come to find out the assembly doesn't slide out

[lostforawhile]

Ok so Im down to the hub assembly. I've taken the axle nut off and come to find out the assembly doesn't slide out

if you have those long studs you are going to have to press the hub out of the wheel bearing. with normal length studs you can grind some of the flange off on the back of the stud,and it will clear enough to slip in place. wheel bearings aren't that expensive, go ahead and put in new bearings while it's apart. try to find the nsk bearings if you look for some. i went the whole nine yards, bead blasted and powder coated my hubs, new bearings, new dust shield on the back, ball joints,everything. easy to do while it's out.

[87roach]

It's not that cheap.. but like lost says, it would be also easier to replace other joints and such while it's out. gl bullard

[lostforawhile]

It's not that cheap.. but like lost says, it would be also easier to replace other joints and such while it's out. gl bullard

it's well worth the peace of mine knowing the bearings are good and that lower ball joint isn't going to fall out. I got my lower joint pretty cheap from summit and it's a moog. one note if you get theirs,it comes with a really kick ass boot, but you have to take the boot spring clip off,the boot off,then press in the joint. then put it back on,they claim you can do it with it on,but there's no way. when you put the spring clip back on, it's a couple of spirals of spring wire, you have to expand it with something,then clamp the clip open with a pair of needle nose vise grips or something. it goes on easy that way,but if you didn't know that it would drive you nuts.

[bullard123]

if you have those long studs you are going to have to press the hub out of the wheel bearing. with normal length studs you can grind some of the flange off on the back of the stud,and it will clear enough to slip in place. wheel bearings aren't that expensive, go ahead and put in new bearings while it's apart. try to find the nsk bearings if you look for some. i went the whole nine yards, bead blasted and powder coated my hubs, new bearings, new dust shield on the back, ball joints,everything. easy to do while it's out.

Yes you are right. I just found that out after spending a hour wondering why the hub assembly wouldn't slide off lol. Apparently Honda changed that in 1990 because the 90 accords have 4 bolts holding the hub asembly on. This sucks because now I have to take the car to a mechanic because I don't have a press and I don't know how much they will charge Apparently the rear hubs have to be unpressed and pressed again as well so I have to do all four

[lostforawhile]

Yes you are right. I just found that out after spending a hour wondering why the hub assembly wouldn't slide off lol. Apparently Honda changed that in 1990 because the 90 accords have 4 bolts holding the hub asembly on. This sucks because now I have to take the car to a mechanic because I don't have a press and I don't know how much they will charge Apparently the rear hubs have to be unpressed and pressed again as well so I have to do all four

do you have drums or discs in the back can't remember? i know on the drums you just take out the big nut in the middle and the entire hub comes off of the carrier. don't even have to take the brakes apart. not sure on rear discs, if the hub comes out, drive out the old ones with a hammer,put the stud through the hole,now use a bunch of thick half inch hole washers and an old lug nut to pull the stud into the hole.

[bullard123]

do you have drums or discs in the back can't remember? i know on the drums you just take out the big nut in the middle and the entire hub comes off of the carrier. don't even have to take the brakes apart. not sure on rear discs, if the hub comes out, drive out the old ones with a hammer,put the stud through the hole,now use a bunch of thick half inch hole washers and an old lug nut to pull the stud into the hole.

I have drums in the rear Lost. It seems like you have done this a few times. I was rolling on this project myself until I found out that the hubs were pressed in. Well at least i have some good news knowing that i can do the rears myself. Thanks for the info Lost

[87roach]

ahh.. now im really wishing I had enough to get some of those arp studs and put them in when I replaced everything. doh.

[bullard123]

ahh.. now im really wishing I had enough to get some of those arp studs and put them in when I replaced everything. doh.

Yes i know how you feel...It sucks that Honda made it this diffucult to replace studs on these cars

[bullard123]

Im installing these on the front sway bars while Im at it

[boost addict]

here's a good picture from tire rack, the tapered area is where all the force from tightning the lugs is at, this is what actually holds the wheel to the car, this is also why it's so important to torque your lug nuts correctly.

I'm pretty sure most (98%) passenger vehicle wheels are hub-centric, doesn't that mean that the load of the car is transferred through the hub and not the lugs? I'd bet those were simply over torqued though.

[Rendon LX-i]

yup those are the ones...i installed all my studs just by tappering them and slids right in....i got all new studs in the front...the back never broke

[lostforawhile]

I have drums in the rear Lost. It seems like you have done this a few times. I was rolling on this project myself until I found out that the hubs were pressed in. Well at least i have some good news knowing that i can do the rears myself. Thanks for the info Lost

yea the rears are really easy, i changed out an entire hub in less then fifteen minutes, the brake backing plate stays in place with all the brake parts attached to it. you just take off the drum,and remove the big center nut, just like on the front. it's actually the same nut, you'll need to replace them after you take them off, or if you are really cheap, just swap the nuts from one side to the other, this moves the place they were staked, so you have new metal to stake down. watch your torque on that rear nut, it's not nearly as much as the front and if it torqued super tight it can damage the bearings.

[Dr_Snooz]

I'm pretty sure most (98%) passenger vehicle wheels are hub-centric, doesn't that mean that the load of the car is transferred through the hub and not the lugs? I'd bet those were simply over torqued though.

I think it's the other way round. The German cars are definitely hub-centric. They're a blasted nuisance when you try to buy aftermarket wheels. If you don't get the right hub bore, then you have to get hub rings. If you don't get hub rings, the car wobbles so bad, you think it will shake to pieces at 30 mph.

For what it's worth, hub rings are little flimsy teeny pieces of plastic. I can't see them bearing any load at all so I'm with guyhatesmycar on this one. The hub ring does nothing more than center the wheel on the hub. Hondas are lug-centric though, so there's no need for rings on a 3g.

[lostforawhile]

the Germans like to overengineer everything, the little plastic ring probably costs as much as a new civic.

[Ichiban]

I'm pretty sure most (98%) passenger vehicle wheels are hub-centric, doesn't that mean that the load of the car is transferred through the hub and not the lugs? I'd bet those were simply over torqued though.

No. 98% of cars and light trucks were not hub piloted. No, the wheel is not supported by the hub bore on the rim.